[Heb-NACO] Romanization Question
sshtuhl
sshtuhl at upenn.edu
Wed Nov 11 10:21:10 EST 2015
I agree with Barry. When we look at the word pesikhologyah we have over
ten sub-fields that should be Rominized as: psikhologyah genetit,
psikhologyah hevdelit. However, there is also pesikhologyah shimushit
without any visible reason for the difference. Likewise, there is
pesikhopati but ishiyut psikhopatit. This inconsistency confuses matters.
Smadar
On 11/10/2015 10:39 PM, Barry Walfish wrote:
> Maybe it's time to revisit this rule and stop using Alcalay as an
> authority. Maybe those two cases are typos.
> So right now we have:
> kriminologyah
> statistiskah
> but deramah.
>
> psikhologyah
> psikhi, etc.
> but pesefas.
>
> Note that in the Rav-milim online edition, all of these have a sheva
> under the first letter.
>
> The logical and consistent rule would be to treat all these words as
> loan words and not put in the sheva na.
>
> Why should Alcalay trump logic, consistency, and current usage? How
> would a reader know about this obscure, case by case rule?
>
> I can assure you that no native speaker of Hebrew says deramah or
> pesefas.
>
> I guess this all goes to show how imperfect and difficult the system
> we're using is. Hurray for the vernacular.
>
> Barry
>
> Barry Dov Walfish, Ph.D.
> Judaica Specialist
> University of Toronto Libraries
> Toronto, ON M5S 1A5
> Canada
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *From:* Heb-naco
> [heb-naco-bounces+barry.walfish=utoronto.ca at lists.osu.edu] on behalf
> of Heidi G Lerner [lerner at stanford.edu]
> *Sent:* Tuesday, November 10, 2015 5:39 PM
> *To:* Hebrew Name Authority Funnel
> *Subject:* Re: [Heb-NACO] Romanization Question
>
> I am revising my early opinion. I think that Jay is correct and he
> went to a valid reference work.
>
>
> Bes, Heidi
>
>
> Our instructions for foreign loan words in Hebraica Cataloging are
> quite clear:
>
>
> /The first shev.a in a foreign loan word with an initial consonantal
> cluster is generally treated as a shev.a nah.. For correct
> romanization it is necessary to consult Even-Shoshan and Alcalay on a
> case-by-case basis. These initial clusters retain the effect of vowel
> "heightening"--the shev.a of the prefixes be-, ke-, and le- becomes a
> h.irik.: bi-, ki-, li-./
> /ALA-LC Romanization:/
> /Israel. Lishkah ha-merkazit Ii-st?at?ist?ik.ah./
> /?????. ???? ??????? ??????????./
> /Universit?ah ha-'Ivrit bi-Yerushalayim. Makhon li-k.riminologyah./
> /?????????? ?????? ????????. ???? ?????????????/
> /but:/
> /deramah [cf. Alcalay; translation: drama]/
> /A few loan words are also treated as though exempt from the rules
> governing the aspiration/ non-aspiration of b/v, k/kh, and p/f when
> preceded by an open syllable./
> /be-Polin [not: be-Folin] (translation: in Poland)/
>
>
> Heidi G. Lerner
>
> Metadata Librarian for Hebraica and Judaica
>
> Metadata Dept.
>
> Stanford University Libraries
>
> Stanford, CA 94305-6004
>
> ph: 650-725-9953
>
> fax: 650-725-1120
>
> e-mail: lerner at stanford.edu
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *From:* Heb-naco <heb-naco-bounces at lists.osu.edu> on behalf of Jay
> Rovner <JAROVNER at JTSA.EDU>
> *Sent:* Tuesday, November 10, 2015 7:37 AM
> *To:* Hebrew Name Authority Funnel
> *Subject:* Re: [Heb-NACO] Romanization Question
>
> I forgot the dictionary tallies of preceding messages. I have only
> Alcalay, from which I conclude that we are not here Romanizing a Greek
> letter. We are, rather, Romanizing a Hebrew word. My Alcalay edition
> treats /pesefas/ and /deramah/ as Hebrew vocabulary words, vocalizing
> the first consonant with a /sheva, /which it does not do for
> /psikholog/. This is not a question of etymology, but of usage. I
> think that Israeli speakers pronounce the /sheva/ of /pesafas /if only
> because that helps them accent the final syllable (unfortunately they
> ignore a lot of other mobile shevas, ones thatwe do -- and do not --
> regard in our Romanizing).
>
> JR
>
> Jay Rovner, PhD
>
> Manuscript Bibliographer
>
> The Library of The Jewish Theological Seminary
>
> 5501 Library
>
> 3080 Broadway
>
> New York City, New York 10027
>
> (212) 678-8045
>
> *Please note:*The JTS Library's archives are temporarily to
> accommodate packing of our Special Collections in advance of our
> rebuilding project. The archives will reopen on January 4, 2016, in
> the Temporary Library located on the 7th floor of JTS's Kripke and
> Schiff buildings.
>
> The Special Collections are closed for approximately four years.
> Reference services for the Special Collections will continue
> throughout this period. Please be sure to check for digital copies of
> manuscripts and rare books.
>
> For help in finding what you might need, please email
> sadiamant at jtsa.edu <mailto:sadiamant at jtsa.edu> or srr at jtsa.edu
> <mailto:srr at jtsa.edu> with Special Collections requests, or our
> reference librarians <mailto:library at jtsa.edu> or visit the Library's
> website <http://www.jtsa.edu/The_Library.xml>.
>
> *From:*Heb-naco [mailto:heb-naco-bounces at lists.osu.edu] *On Behalf Of
> *Jasmin Shinohara
> *Sent:* Monday, November 09, 2015 3:53 PM
> *To:* heb-naco at lists.osu.edu
> *Subject:* Re: [Heb-NACO] Romanization Question
>
> Agreed, Neil. Barry noted the fact that the Greek word starts with a
> psi. Does that make any difference to how we want to treat it?
>
> On 11/9/2015 3:31 PM, Neil Manel Frau-Cortes wrote:
>
> ... which kind of shows that the issue is not very well solved, IMHO.
>
> **
>
> *Neil M. Frau-Cortes, Ph.D.*
>
> Judaica, Hebraica and Metadata Cataloger
>
> McKeldin Library
>
> University of Maryland
> College Park, MD 20742
> Phone (301) 405-9337
>
> nfrau at umd.edu <mailto:nfrau at umd.edu>
>
> *From:*Heb-naco [mailto:heb-naco-bounces at lists.osu.edu] *On Behalf
> Of *Yossi Galron
> *Sent:* Monday, November 09, 2015 3:23 PM
> *To:* Hebrew Name Authority Funnel
> *Subject:* Re: [Heb-NACO] Romanization Question
>
> Heidi,
> I believe our practice was Pesefas and not Psefas.
> Yossi
>
> On Nov 9, 2015 3:21 PM, "Heidi G Lerner" <lerner at stanford.edu
> <mailto:lerner at stanford.edu>> wrote:
>
> Based on the conversation I agree with Yosi.
>
> Unless there is strong disagreement we shall romanize
>
> ?????
>
> as "psefas"
>
> Best, Heidi
>
> Heidi G. Lerner
>
> Metadata Librarian for Hebraica and Judaica
>
> Metadata Dept.
>
> Stanford University Libraries
>
> Stanford, CA 94305-6004
>
> ph: 650-725-9953 <tel:650-725-9953>
>
> fax: 650-725-1120 <tel:650-725-1120>
>
> e-mail: lerner at stanford.edu <mailto:lerner at stanford.edu>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> *From:*Heb-naco <heb-naco-bounces at lists.osu.edu
> <mailto:heb-naco-bounces at lists.osu.edu>> on behalf of Yossi Galron
> <jgalron at gmail.com <mailto:jgalron at gmail.com>>
> *Sent:* Monday, November 9, 2015 12:17 PM
> *To:* Hebrew Name Authority Funnel
> *Subject:* Re: [Heb-NACO] Romanization Question
>
> I wouldn't change our practice.
> Just lazy.
> Yossi
>
> On Nov 9, 2015 3:11 PM, "sshtuhl" <sshtuhl at upenn.edu
> <mailto:sshtuhl at upenn.edu>> wrote:
>
> Hi all,
> We had an interesting discussion about the Romanization of
> foreign-loan words. Can we get to any agreement about how to
> Romanize the word ??????
> Thanks,
> Smadar
>
> --
> Smadar Shtuhl
> Hebraica Library Specialist
> University of Pennsylvania
> Van Pelt-Dietrich Library Center
> 3420 Walnut Street
> Philadelphia, PA 19104-6206
> F. 215-573-9610 <tel:215-573-9610>
> sshtuhl at upenn.edu <mailto:sshtuhl at upenn.edu>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Heb-naco mailing list
> Heb-naco at lists.osu.edu <mailto:Heb-naco at lists.osu.edu>
> https://lists.osu.edu/mailman/listinfo/heb-naco
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Heb-naco mailing list
> Heb-naco at lists.osu.edu <mailto:Heb-naco at lists.osu.edu>
> https://lists.osu.edu/mailman/listinfo/heb-naco
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> Heb-naco mailing list
>
> Heb-naco at lists.osu.edu <mailto:Heb-naco at lists.osu.edu>
>
> https://lists.osu.edu/mailman/listinfo/heb-naco
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Heb-naco mailing list
> Heb-naco at lists.osu.edu
> https://lists.osu.edu/mailman/listinfo/heb-naco
--
Smadar Shtuhl
Hebraica Library Specialist
University of Pennsylvania
Van Pelt-Dietrich Library Center
3420 Walnut Street
Philadelphia, PA 19104-6206
F. 215-573-9610
sshtuhl at upenn.edu
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.osu.edu/pipermail/heb-naco/attachments/20151111/73d92a46/attachment-0001.html>
More information about the Heb-naco
mailing list