[Heb-NACO] Romanization Question

Tue Nov 10 22:39:58 EST 2015

Maybe it's time to revisit this rule and stop using Alcalay as an authority. Maybe those two cases are typos.
So right now we have:
kriminologyah
statistiskah
but deramah.

psikhologyah
psikhi, etc.
but pesefas.

Note that in the Rav-milim online edition, all of these have a sheva under the first letter.

The logical and consistent rule would be to treat all these words as loan words and not put in the sheva na.

Why should Alcalay trump logic, consistency, and current usage? How would a reader know about this obscure, case by case rule?

I can assure you that no native speaker of Hebrew says deramah or pesefas.

I guess this all goes to show how imperfect and difficult the system we're using is. Hurray for the vernacular.

Barry

Barry Dov Walfish, Ph.D.
Judaica Specialist
University of Toronto Libraries
Toronto, ON M5S 1A5
Canada
________________________________
From: Heb-naco [heb-naco-bounces+barry.walfish=utoronto.ca at lists.osu.edu] on behalf of Heidi G Lerner [lerner at stanford.edu]
Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2015 5:39 PM
To: Hebrew Name Authority Funnel
Subject: Re: [Heb-NACO] Romanization Question

I am revising my early opinion. I think that Jay is correct and he went to a valid reference work.

Bes, Heidi

Our instructions for foreign loan words in Hebraica Cataloging are quite clear:

The first sheṿa in a foreign loan word with an initial consonantal cluster is generally treated as a sheṿa naḥ. For correct romanization it is necessary to consult Even-Shoshan and Alcalay on a case-by-case basis. These initial clusters retain the effect of vowel "heightening"--the sheṿa of the prefixes be-, ke-, and le- becomes a ḥiriḳ: bi-, ki-, li-.
ALA-LC Romanization:
Israel. Lishkah ha-merkazit Ii-sṭaṭisṭiḳah.
ישראל. לשכה המרכזית לסטטיסטיקה.
Universiṭah ha-‘Ivrit bi-Yerushalayim. Makhon li-ḳriminologyah.
אוניברסיטה העברית בירושלים. מכון לקרימינולוגיה
but:
deramah [cf. Alcalay; translation: drama]
A few loan words are also treated as though exempt from the rules governing the aspiration/ non-aspiration of b/v, k/kh, and p/f when preceded by an open syllable.
be-Polin [not: be-Folin] (translation: in Poland)

Heidi G. Lerner

Metadata Librarian for Hebraica and Judaica

Metadata Dept.

Stanford University Libraries

Stanford, CA 94305-6004

ph: 650-725-9953

fax: 650-725-1120

e-mail: lerner at stanford.edu

________________________________
From: Heb-naco <heb-naco-bounces at lists.osu.edu> on behalf of Jay Rovner <JAROVNER at JTSA.EDU>
Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2015 7:37 AM
To: Hebrew Name Authority Funnel
Subject: Re: [Heb-NACO] Romanization Question

I forgot the dictionary tallies of preceding messages.  I have only Alcalay, from which I conclude that we are not here Romanizing a Greek letter. We are, rather, Romanizing a Hebrew word. My Alcalay edition treats pesefas and deramah as Hebrew vocabulary words, vocalizing the first consonant with a sheva, which it does not do for psikholog.  This is not a question of etymology, but of usage. I think that Israeli speakers pronounce the sheva of pesafas if only because that helps them accent the final syllable (unfortunately they ignore a lot of other mobile shevas, ones thatwe  do -- and do not -- regard in our Romanizing).

           JR

Jay Rovner, PhD

Manuscript Bibliographer

The Library of The Jewish Theological Seminary

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From: Heb-naco [mailto:heb-naco-bounces at lists.osu.edu] On Behalf Of Jasmin Shinohara
Sent: Monday, November 09, 2015 3:53 PM
To: heb-naco at lists.osu.edu
Subject: Re: [Heb-NACO] Romanization Question

Agreed, Neil.  Barry noted the fact that the Greek word starts with a psi.  Does that make any difference to how we want to treat it?

On 11/9/2015 3:31 PM, Neil Manel Frau-Cortes wrote:

… which kind of shows that the issue is not very well solved, IMHO.

Neil M. Frau-Cortes, Ph.D.

Judaica, Hebraica and Metadata Cataloger

McKeldin Library

University of Maryland
College Park, MD 20742
Phone (301) 405-9337

nfrau at umd.edu<mailto:nfrau at umd.edu>

From: Heb-naco [mailto:heb-naco-bounces at lists.osu.edu] On Behalf Of Yossi Galron
Sent: Monday, November 09, 2015 3:23 PM
To: Hebrew Name Authority Funnel
Subject: Re: [Heb-NACO] Romanization Question

Heidi,
I believe our practice was Pesefas and not Psefas.
Yossi

On Nov 9, 2015 3:21 PM, "Heidi G Lerner" <lerner at stanford.edu<mailto:lerner at stanford.edu>> wrote:

Based on the conversation I agree with Yosi.

Unless there is strong disagreement we shall romanize

פסיפס

as "psefas"

Best, Heidi

Heidi G. Lerner

Metadata Librarian for Hebraica and Judaica

Metadata Dept.

Stanford University Libraries

Stanford, CA 94305-6004

ph: 650-725-9953<tel:650-725-9953>

fax: 650-725-1120<tel:650-725-1120>

e-mail: lerner at stanford.edu<mailto:lerner at stanford.edu>

________________________________

From: Heb-naco <heb-naco-bounces at lists.osu.edu<mailto:heb-naco-bounces at lists.osu.edu>> on behalf of Yossi Galron <jgalron at gmail.com<mailto:jgalron at gmail.com>>
Sent: Monday, November 9, 2015 12:17 PM
To: Hebrew Name Authority Funnel
Subject: Re: [Heb-NACO] Romanization Question

I wouldn't change our practice.
Just lazy.
Yossi

On Nov 9, 2015 3:11 PM, "sshtuhl" <sshtuhl at upenn.edu<mailto:sshtuhl at upenn.edu>> wrote:

Hi all,
We had an interesting discussion about the Romanization of foreign-loan words. Can we get to any agreement about how to Romanize the word פסיפס?
Thanks,
Smadar

--
Smadar Shtuhl
Hebraica Library Specialist
University of Pennsylvania
Van Pelt-Dietrich Library Center
3420 Walnut Street
Philadelphia, PA 19104-6206
F. 215-573-9610<tel:215-573-9610>
sshtuhl at upenn.edu<mailto:sshtuhl at upenn.edu>

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