[Heb-NACO] Romanization Question

Wed Nov 11 11:18:13 EST 2015

Semadar  (or do you prefer Smadar :-)
The examples you brought are not according to the practice we were using
and are not "correct", but in general I support the discussion and we need
to reconsider the matter.
Kol tuv
Yossi [also not according to the rules]
On Nov 11, 2015 11:10 AM, "sshtuhl" <sshtuhl at upenn.edu> wrote:

> I agree with Barry. When we look at the word pesikhologyah we have over
> ten sub-fields that should be Rominized as: psikhologyah genetit,
> psikhologyah hevdelit. However, there is also pesikhologyah shimushit
> without any visible reason for the difference. Likewise, there is
> pesikhopati but ishiyut psikhopatit. This inconsistency confuses matters.
> Smadar
>
> On 11/10/2015 10:39 PM, Barry Walfish wrote:
>
> Maybe it's time to revisit this rule and stop using Alcalay as an
> authority. Maybe those two cases are typos.
> So right now we have:
> kriminologyah
> statistiskah
> but deramah.
>
> psikhologyah
> psikhi, etc.
> but pesefas.
>
> Note that in the Rav-milim online edition, all of these have a sheva under
> the first letter.
>
> The logical and consistent rule would be to treat all these words as loan
> words and not put in the sheva na.
>
> Why should Alcalay trump logic, consistency, and current usage? How would
> a reader know about this obscure, case by case rule?
>
> I can assure you that no native speaker of Hebrew says deramah or pesefas.
>
> I guess this all goes to show how imperfect and difficult the system we're
> using is. Hurray for the vernacular.
>
> Barry
>
> Barry Dov Walfish, Ph.D.
> Judaica Specialist
> University of Toronto Libraries
> Toronto, ON M5S 1A5
> Canada
> ------------------------------
> *From:* Heb-naco [heb-naco-bounces+barry.walfish=utoronto.ca at lists.osu.edu]
> on behalf of Heidi G Lerner [lerner at stanford.edu]
> *Sent:* Tuesday, November 10, 2015 5:39 PM
> *To:* Hebrew Name Authority Funnel
> *Subject:* Re: [Heb-NACO] Romanization Question
>
> I am revising my early opinion. I think that Jay is correct and he went to
> a valid reference work.
>
>
> Bes, Heidi
>
>
> Our instructions for foreign loan words in Hebraica Cataloging are quite
> clear:
>
>
> *The first sheṿa in a foreign loan word with an initial consonantal
> cluster is generally treated as a sheṿa naḥ. For correct romanization it is
> necessary to consult Even-Shoshan and Alcalay on a case-by-case basis.
> These initial clusters retain the effect of vowel "heightening"--the sheṿa
> of the prefixes be-, ke-, and le- becomes a ḥiriḳ: bi-, ki-, li-.*
> *ALA-LC Romanization:*
> *Israel. Lishkah ha-merkazit Ii-sṭaṭisṭiḳah.*
> *ישראל. לשכה המרכזית לסטטיסטיקה.*
> *Universiṭah ha-‘Ivrit bi-Yerushalayim. Makhon li-ḳriminologyah.*
> *אוניברסיטה העברית בירושלים. מכון לקרימינולוגיה*
> *but:*
> *deramah [cf. Alcalay; translation: drama]*
> *A few loan words are also treated as though exempt from the rules
> governing the aspiration/ non-aspiration of b/v, k/kh, and p/f when
> preceded by an open syllable.*
> *be-Polin [not: be-Folin] (translation: in Poland)*
>
>
> Heidi G. Lerner
>
> Metadata Librarian for Hebraica and Judaica
>
> Metadata Dept.
>
> Stanford University Libraries
>
> Stanford, CA 94305-6004
>
> ph: 650-725-9953
>
> fax: 650-725-1120
>
> e-mail: lerner at stanford.edu
>
>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* Heb-naco <heb-naco-bounces at lists.osu.edu>
> <heb-naco-bounces at lists.osu.edu> on behalf of Jay Rovner
> <JAROVNER at JTSA.EDU> <JAROVNER at JTSA.EDU>
> *Sent:* Tuesday, November 10, 2015 7:37 AM
> *To:* Hebrew Name Authority Funnel
> *Subject:* Re: [Heb-NACO] Romanization Question
>
>
> I forgot the dictionary tallies of preceding messages.  I have only
> Alcalay, from which I conclude that we are not here Romanizing a Greek
> letter. We are, rather, Romanizing a Hebrew word. My Alcalay edition treats
> *pesefas* and *deramah* as Hebrew vocabulary words, vocalizing the first
> consonant with a *sheva, *which it does not do for *psikholog*.  This is
> not a question of etymology, but of usage. I think that Israeli speakers
> pronounce the *sheva* of *pesafas *if only because that helps them accent
> the final syllable (unfortunately they ignore a lot of other mobile shevas,
> ones thatwe  do -- and do not -- regard in our Romanizing).
>
>
>
>            JR
>
>
>
> Jay Rovner, PhD
>
> Manuscript Bibliographer
>
> The Library of The Jewish Theological Seminary
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>
> *From:* Heb-naco [mailto:heb-naco-bounces at lists.osu.edu
> <heb-naco-bounces at lists.osu.edu>] *On Behalf Of *Jasmin Shinohara
> *Sent:* Monday, November 09, 2015 3:53 PM
> *To:* heb-naco at lists.osu.edu
> *Subject:* Re: [Heb-NACO] Romanization Question
>
>
>
> Agreed, Neil.  Barry noted the fact that the Greek word starts with a
> psi.  Does that make any difference to how we want to treat it?
>
> On 11/9/2015 3:31 PM, Neil Manel Frau-Cortes wrote:
>
> … which kind of shows that the issue is not very well solved, IMHO.
>
>
>
>
>
> *Neil M. Frau-Cortes, Ph.D.*
>
> Judaica, Hebraica and Metadata Cataloger
>
> McKeldin Library
>
> University of Maryland
> College Park, MD 20742
> Phone (301) 405-9337
>
> nfrau at umd.edu
>
>
>
> *From:* Heb-naco [mailto:heb-naco-bounces at lists.osu.edu
> <heb-naco-bounces at lists.osu.edu>] *On Behalf Of *Yossi Galron
> *Sent:* Monday, November 09, 2015 3:23 PM
> *To:* Hebrew Name Authority Funnel
> *Subject:* Re: [Heb-NACO] Romanization Question
>
>
>
> Heidi,
> I believe our practice was Pesefas and not Psefas.
> Yossi
>
> On Nov 9, 2015 3:21 PM, "Heidi G Lerner" <lerner at stanford.edu> wrote:
>
> Based on the conversation I agree with Yosi.
>
>
>
> Unless there is strong disagreement we shall romanize
>
> פסיפס
>
> as "psefas"
>
>
>
> Best, Heidi
>
>
>
> Heidi G. Lerner
>
> Metadata Librarian for Hebraica and Judaica
>
> Metadata Dept.
>
> Stanford University Libraries
>
> Stanford, CA 94305-6004
>
> ph: 650-725-9953
>
> fax: 650-725-1120
>
> e-mail: lerner at stanford.edu
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> *From:* Heb-naco <heb-naco-bounces at lists.osu.edu> on behalf of Yossi
> Galron <jgalron at gmail.com>
> *Sent:* Monday, November 9, 2015 12:17 PM
> *To:* Hebrew Name Authority Funnel
> *Subject:* Re: [Heb-NACO] Romanization Question
>
>
>
> I wouldn't change our practice.
> Just lazy.
> Yossi
>
> On Nov 9, 2015 3:11 PM, "sshtuhl" <sshtuhl at upenn.edu> wrote:
>
> Hi all,
> We had an interesting discussion about the Romanization of foreign-loan
> words. Can we get to any agreement about how to Romanize the word פסיפס?
> Thanks,
> Smadar
>
> --
> Smadar Shtuhl
> Hebraica Library Specialist
> University of Pennsylvania
> Van Pelt-Dietrich Library Center
> 3420 Walnut Street
> Philadelphia, PA 19104-6206
> F. 215-573-9610
> sshtuhl at upenn.edu
>
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>
> --
> Smadar Shtuhl
> Hebraica Library Specialist
> University of Pennsylvania
> Van Pelt-Dietrich Library Center
> 3420 Walnut Street
> Philadelphia, PA 19104-6206
> F. 215-573-9610sshtuhl at upenn.edu
>
>
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