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I agree with Barry. When we look at the word pesikhologyah we have
over ten sub-fields that should be Rominized as: psikhologyah
genetit, psikhologyah hevdelit. However, there is also pesikhologyah
shimushit without any visible reason for the difference. Likewise,
there is pesikhopati but ishiyut psikhopatit. This inconsistency
confuses matters.<br>
Smadar<br>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 11/10/2015 10:39 PM, Barry Walfish
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:18A5E2BEC11A5A43AF701CE86E41E0FC011E486856@arborexmbx4.UTORARBOR.UTORAD.Utoronto.ca"
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<div style="direction:ltr; font-family:Tahoma; color:#000000;
font-size:10pt">Maybe it's time to revisit this rule and stop
using Alcalay as an authority. Maybe those two cases are
typos.<br>
So right now we have:<br>
kriminologyah<br>
statistiskah<br>
but deramah.<br>
<br>
psikhologyah<br>
psikhi, etc.<br>
but pesefas.<br>
<br>
Note that in the Rav-milim online edition, all of these have a
sheva under the first letter.
<br>
<br>
The logical and consistent rule would be to treat all these
words as loan words and not put in the sheva na.<br>
<br>
Why should Alcalay trump logic, consistency, and current
usage? How would a reader know about this obscure, case by
case rule?
<br>
<br>
I can assure you that no native speaker of Hebrew says deramah
or pesefas. <br>
<br>
I guess this all goes to show how imperfect and difficult the
system we're using is. Hurray for the vernacular.
<br>
<br>
Barry<br>
<div><br>
Barry Dov Walfish, Ph.D.<br>
Judaica Specialist<br>
University of Toronto Libraries <br>
Toronto, ON M5S 1A5<br>
Canada</div>
<div style="font-family:Times New Roman; color:#000000;
font-size:16px">
<hr tabindex="-1">
<div id="divRpF852001" style="direction:ltr"><font size="2"
color="#000000" face="Tahoma"><b>From:</b> Heb-naco
[<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:heb-naco-bounces+barry.walfish=utoronto.ca@lists.osu.edu">heb-naco-bounces+barry.walfish=utoronto.ca@lists.osu.edu</a>]
on behalf of Heidi G Lerner [<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:lerner@stanford.edu">lerner@stanford.edu</a>]<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, November 10, 2015 5:39 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Hebrew Name Authority Funnel<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Heb-NACO] Romanization Question<br>
</font><br>
</div>
<div>
<div id="divtagdefaultwrapper" style="font-size:12pt;
color:#000000; background-color:#FFFFFF;
font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif">
<p>I am revising my early opinion. I think that Jay is
correct and he went to a valid reference work. </p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>Bes, Heidi</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<p>Our instructions for foreign loan words in Hebraica
Cataloging are quite clear:</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<div><i>The first sheṿa in a foreign loan word with an
initial consonantal cluster is generally treated as
a sheṿa naḥ. For correct romanization it is
necessary to consult Even-Shoshan and Alcalay on a
case-by-case basis. These initial clusters retain
the effect of vowel "heightening"--the sheṿa of the
prefixes be-, ke-, and le- becomes a ḥiriḳ: bi-,
ki-, li-.</i></div>
<div><i>ALA-LC Romanization:</i></div>
<div><i>Israel. Lishkah ha-merkazit Ii-sṭaṭisṭiḳah.</i></div>
<div><i>ישראל. לשכה המרכזית לסטטיסטיקה.</i></div>
<div><i>Universiṭah ha-‘Ivrit bi-Yerushalayim. Makhon
li-ḳriminologyah.</i></div>
<div><i>אוניברסיטה העברית בירושלים. מכון לקרימינולוגיה</i></div>
<div><i>but:</i></div>
<div><i>deramah [cf. Alcalay; translation: drama]</i></div>
<div><i>A few loan words are also treated as though
exempt from the rules governing the aspiration/
non-aspiration of b/v, k/kh, and p/f when preceded
by an open syllable.</i></div>
<div><i>be-Polin [not: be-Folin] (translation: in
Poland)</i></div>
<br>
<p><br>
</p>
<div id="Signature">
<div id="divtagdefaultwrapper" style="font-size:12pt;
color:#000000; background-color:#FFFFFF;
font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif">
<p>Heidi G. Lerner</p>
<p>Metadata Librarian for Hebraica and Judaica</p>
<p>Metadata Dept.</p>
<p>Stanford University Libraries</p>
<p>Stanford, CA 94305-6004</p>
<p>ph: 650-725-9953</p>
<p>fax: 650-725-1120</p>
<p>e-mail: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:lerner@stanford.edu">lerner@stanford.edu</a></p>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<br>
<div style="color:rgb(0,0,0)">
<hr tabindex="-1" style="display:inline-block;
width:98%">
<div id="divRplyFwdMsg" dir="ltr"><font
style="font-size:11pt" color="#000000"
face="Calibri, sans-serif"><b>From:</b> Heb-naco
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:heb-naco-bounces@lists.osu.edu"><heb-naco-bounces@lists.osu.edu></a> on behalf
of Jay Rovner <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:JAROVNER@JTSA.EDU"><JAROVNER@JTSA.EDU></a><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, November 10, 2015 7:37 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Hebrew Name Authority Funnel<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Heb-NACO] Romanization
Question</font>
<div> </div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size:12pt;
font-family:'Times New Roman',serif;
color:black">
<span style="font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D">I forgot the dictionary tallies
of preceding messages. I have only Alcalay,
from which I conclude that we are not here
Romanizing a Greek letter. We are, rather,
Romanizing a Hebrew word. My Alcalay edition
treats <i>pesefas</i> and <i>deramah</i> as
Hebrew vocabulary words, vocalizing the first
consonant with a
<i>sheva, </i>which it does not do for <i>psikholog</i>.
This is not a question of etymology, but of
usage. I think that Israeli speakers pronounce
the
<i>sheva</i> of <i>pesafas </i>if only
because that helps them accent the final
syllable (unfortunately they ignore a lot of
other mobile shevas, ones thatwe do -- and do
not -- regard in our Romanizing).</span></p>
<p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size:12pt;
font-family:'Times New Roman',serif;
color:black">
<span style="font-size:11.0pt;
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<p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;
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<span style="font-size:11.0pt; color:#1F497D">
JR</span></p>
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<p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;
font-size:12pt; font-family:'Times New
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<span style="font-size:11.0pt; color:#1F497D">Jay
Rovner, PhD</span></p>
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<span style="font-size:11.0pt; color:#1F497D">Manuscript
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<span style="font-size:11.0pt; color:#1F497D">The
Library of The Jewish Theological Seminary</span></p>
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<span style="font-size:11.0pt; color:#1F497D">(212)
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font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D"> </span></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none; border-top:solid
#B5C4DF 1.0pt; padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;
font-size:12pt; font-family:'Times New
Roman',serif; color:black">
<b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";
color:windowtext">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";
color:windowtext"> Heb-naco
[<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:heb-naco-bounces@lists.osu.edu">mailto:heb-naco-bounces@lists.osu.edu</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Jasmin Shinohara<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, November 09, 2015
3:53 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:heb-naco@lists.osu.edu">heb-naco@lists.osu.edu</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Heb-NACO]
Romanization Question</span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size:12pt;
font-family:'Times New Roman',serif;
color:black">
</p>
<p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size:12pt;
font-family:'Times New Roman',serif;
color:black">
Agreed, Neil. Barry noted the fact that the
Greek word starts with a psi. Does that make
any difference to how we want to treat it?</p>
<div>
<p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;
font-size:12pt; font-family:'Times New
Roman',serif; color:black">
On 11/9/2015 3:31 PM, Neil Manel Frau-Cortes
wrote:</p>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;
margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;
font-size:12pt; font-family:'Times New
Roman',serif; color:black">
<span style="font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D">… which kind of shows that
the issue is not very well solved, IMHO.</span></p>
<p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;
font-size:12pt; font-family:'Times New
Roman',serif; color:black">
<span style="font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D"> </span></p>
<p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;
font-size:12pt; font-family:'Times New
Roman',serif; color:black">
<b> </b></p>
<p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;
font-size:12pt; font-family:'Times New
Roman',serif; color:black">
<b>Neil M. Frau-Cortes, Ph.D.</b></p>
<p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;
font-size:12pt; font-family:'Times New
Roman',serif; color:black">
<span style="font-size:11.0pt">Judaica,
Hebraica and Metadata Cataloger</span></p>
<p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;
font-size:12pt; font-family:'Times New
Roman',serif; color:black">
<span style="font-size:11.0pt">McKeldin Library</span></p>
<p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;
font-size:12pt; font-family:'Times New
Roman',serif; color:black">
<span style="font-size:11.0pt">University of
Maryland<br>
College Park, MD 20742<br>
Phone (301) 405-9337</span></p>
<p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;
font-size:12pt; font-family:'Times New
Roman',serif; color:black">
<span style="font-size:11.0pt"><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:nfrau@umd.edu"
style="color:blue;
text-decoration:underline" target="_blank">nfrau@umd.edu</a></span></p>
<p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;
font-size:12pt; font-family:'Times New
Roman',serif; color:black">
<span style="font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D"> </span></p>
<p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;
font-size:12pt; font-family:'Times New
Roman',serif; color:black">
<b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">
Heb-naco [<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:heb-naco-bounces@lists.osu.edu"
style="color:blue;
text-decoration:underline" target="_blank">mailto:heb-naco-bounces@lists.osu.edu</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Yossi Galron<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, November 09, 2015 3:23
PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Hebrew Name Authority Funnel<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Heb-NACO] Romanization
Question</span></p>
<p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;
font-size:12pt; font-family:'Times New
Roman',serif; color:black">
</p>
<p>Heidi, <br>
I believe our practice was Pesefas and not
Psefas.<br>
Yossi</p>
<div>
<p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;
font-size:12pt; font-family:'Times New
Roman',serif; color:black">
On Nov 9, 2015 3:21 PM, "Heidi G Lerner"
<<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:lerner@stanford.edu"
style="color:blue;
text-decoration:underline" target="_blank">lerner@stanford.edu</a>>
wrote:</p>
<div>
<div>
<p style="background:white"><span
style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">Based
on the conversation I agree with Yosi.</span></p>
<p style="background:white"><span
style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""> </span></p>
<p style="background:white"><span
style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">Unless
there is strong disagreement we shall
romanize </span></p>
<p style="background:white"><span
dir="RTL" lang="HE">פסיפס</span></p>
<p style="background:white"><span
style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">as
"psefas"</span></p>
<p style="background:white"><span
style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""> </span></p>
<p style="background:white"><span
style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">Best,
Heidi</span></p>
<p style="background:white"><span
style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""> </span></p>
<div>
<div>
<p style="background:white"><span
style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">Heidi
G. Lerner</span></p>
<p style="background:white"><span
style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">Metadata
Librarian for Hebraica and Judaica</span></p>
<p style="background:white"><span
style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">Metadata
Dept.</span></p>
<p style="background:white"><span
style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">Stanford
University Libraries</span></p>
<p style="background:white"><span
style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">Stanford,
CA 94305-6004</span></p>
<p style="background:white"><span
style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">ph:
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="tel:650-725-9953"
style="color:blue;
text-decoration:underline"
target="_blank">
650-725-9953</a></span></p>
<p style="background:white"><span
style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">fax:
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="tel:650-725-1120"
style="color:blue;
text-decoration:underline"
target="_blank">
650-725-1120</a></span></p>
<p style="background:white"><span
style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">e-mail:
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:lerner@stanford.edu"
style="color:blue;
text-decoration:underline"
target="_blank">
lerner@stanford.edu</a></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;
font-size:12pt; font-family:'Times New
Roman',serif; color:black;
background:white">
<span
style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""> </span></p>
<div>
<div style="text-align:center;
margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;
font-size:12pt; font-family:'Times New
Roman',serif; color:black;
background:white" align="center">
<span
style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">
<hr size="2" width="98%"
align="center">
</span></div>
<div>
<p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;
font-size:12pt; font-family:'Times
New Roman',serif; color:black;
background:white">
<b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">
Heb-naco <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:heb-naco-bounces@lists.osu.edu"
style="color:blue;
text-decoration:underline"
target="_blank">heb-naco-bounces@lists.osu.edu</a>>
on behalf of Yossi Galron <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:jgalron@gmail.com"
style="color:blue;
text-decoration:underline"
target="_blank">jgalron@gmail.com</a>><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, November 9,
2015 12:17 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Hebrew Name Authority
Funnel<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Heb-NACO]
Romanization Question</span></p>
<div>
<p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;
font-size:12pt; font-family:'Times
New Roman',serif; color:black;
background:white">
<span
style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""> </span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p style="background:white"><span
style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">I
wouldn't change our practice.<br>
Just lazy.<br>
Yossi</span></p>
<div>
<p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;
font-size:12pt; font-family:'Times
New Roman',serif; color:black;
background:white">
<span
style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">On
Nov 9, 2015 3:11 PM, "sshtuhl"
<<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:sshtuhl@upenn.edu"
style="color:blue;
text-decoration:underline"
target="_blank">sshtuhl@upenn.edu</a>>
wrote:</span></p>
<p style="margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;
font-size:12pt; font-family:'Times
New Roman',serif; color:black;
background:white">
<span
style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"">Hi
all,<br>
We had an interesting discussion
about the Romanization of
foreign-loan words. Can we get
to any agreement about how to
Romanize the word
</span><span dir="RTL" lang="HE">פסיפס</span><span
dir="LTR"></span><span
style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""><span
dir="LTR"></span>?<br>
Thanks,<br>
Smadar<br>
<br>
-- <br>
Smadar Shtuhl<br>
Hebraica Library Specialist<br>
University of Pennsylvania<br>
Van Pelt-Dietrich Library Center<br>
3420 Walnut Street<br>
Philadelphia, PA 19104-6206<br>
F. <a moz-do-not-send="true"
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215-573-9610</a><br>
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<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
Smadar Shtuhl
Hebraica Library Specialist
University of Pennsylvania
Van Pelt-Dietrich Library Center
3420 Walnut Street
Philadelphia, PA 19104-6206
F. 215-573-9610
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:sshtuhl@upenn.edu">sshtuhl@upenn.edu</a>
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