[Heb-NACO] romanization of קוקטייל

[Yossi Galron]

Jasmin,
I just opened ES: If we have קוקטיל (with one Yod) we should romanize it as
Koktel, but if we have קוקטייל (with two Yods) then it will be Koktail.

Yossi



Joseph (Yossi) Galron-Goldschlaeger
E-Mail: galron.1 at osu.edu  or jgalron at gmail.com
Tel.: (614) 292-3362,  Fax: (614)292-1918
Lexicon of Modern Hebrew Literature: http://go.osu.edu/hebrewlit


On Mon, Oct 21, 2013 at 3:51 PM, Jasmin Nof <jnof at upenn.edu> wrote:

>  Except that קוקטייל is vocalized in ES with a tsere under the tet and a
> sheva under the one yod; the second entry form is with two yodim.
>
> On 10/21/2013 3:31 PM, Yossi Galron wrote:
>
> I am agreeing with Rachel and Barry. As far as I remember it was
> established that in case of two Yudin we romanize it as "ai".
>
> I remember I asked about שייקספיר and it was agreed that it will be
> Shaikspir and not Shekspir.
>
>  [I guess that in case of שיקספיר it will be Shikspir - like ויס is Vis]
>
>  Yossi
>
>
>
>
>  Joseph (Yossi) Galron-Goldschlaeger
> E-Mail: galron.1 at osu.edu  or jgalron at gmail.com
> Tel.: (614) 292-3362,  Fax: (614)292-1918
> Lexicon of Modern Hebrew Literature: http://go.osu.edu/hebrewlit
>
>
> On Mon, Oct 21, 2013 at 1:45 PM, Jasmin Nof <jnof at upenn.edu> wrote:
>
>>  Well, there isn't much guess-work involved in this case, is there?  And
>> yes, 'ai' for names like Weiss is appropriate since we're approximating a
>> patah.
>>
>> Ohh, times like these make me realize how much we miss Joan... :-)
>>
>> On 10/21/2013 1:32 PM, Rachel Simon wrote:
>>
>>  I don’t mind using commonsense, but the way Joan & co. used to explain
>> these Romanization issues was that one shouldn’t try to guess the way a
>> word sound, but Romanize based on the combination of letters. In any case
>> “ai” also appears in names like “Vais” = Weiss.
>>
>>
>>
>> rachel
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* Jasmin Nof [mailto:jnof at upenn.edu <jnof at upenn.edu>]
>> *Sent:* Monday, October 21, 2013 1:21 PM
>> *To:* heb-naco at lists.service.ohio-state.edu; Rachel Simon
>> *Subject:* Re: [Heb-NACO] romanization of קוקטייל
>>
>>
>>
>> No, the "rules" call for Ledi; see the romanization chart: a tsere
>> preceding the yod is 'e'.  Granted, ליידי doesn't appears in ES, but the
>> sound we're trying to approximate is that of a tsere.  Romanizing it as
>> 'ai' implies that it rhymes with "lie".
>>
>> On 10/21/2013 12:11 PM, Rachel Simon wrote:
>>
>> I just came across a similar case, this time with the problematic
>> Romanization in the first word of the title, cataloged by LC:
>>
>>
>>
>> הליידי של העיר הלבנה  =  ha-Ledi shel ha-ʻir ha-levanah
>>
>>
>>
>> Don’t the “rules” call for “Laidi”?
>>
>>
>>
>> Rachel
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:*
>> heb-naco-bounces+rsimon=princeton.edu at lists.service.ohio-state.edu [
>> mailto:heb-naco-bounces+rsimon=princeton.edu at lists.service.ohio-state.edu<heb-naco-bounces+rsimon=princeton.edu at lists.service.ohio-state.edu>]
>> *On Behalf Of *Manuel Frau-Cortes
>> *Sent:* Monday, October 21, 2013 11:46 AM
>> *To:* Hebrew Name Authority Funnel
>> *Subject:* Re: [Heb-NACO] romanization of קוקטייל
>>
>>
>>
>> I do agree with Mr. Talbot. This is a good solution if we keep in mind
>> the end user and discoverability.
>>
>>
>>
>> Rules are rules, but I kind of hate it when rules make impossible for
>> people to find things in the catalog! Total “deramah” / דרמה.
>>
>>
>>
>> * *
>>
>> *Neil M. Frau-Cortes*
>>
>> Hebraica Cataloger
>>
>> McKeldin Library
>>
>> University of Maryland
>> College Park, MD 20742
>> Phone (301) 405-9337 <%28301%29%20405-9337>
>>
>> nfrau at umd.edu
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* heb-naco-bounces at lists.service.ohio-state.edu [
>> mailto:heb-naco-bounces at lists.service.ohio-state.edu<heb-naco-bounces at lists.service.ohio-state.edu>]
>> *On Behalf Of *Robert M. TALBOTT
>> *Sent:* Monday, October 21, 2013 11:34 AM
>> *To:* Hebrew Name Authority Funnel
>> *Subject:* Re: [Heb-NACO] romanization of קוקטייל
>>
>>
>>
>> Folks:
>>
>>
>>
>> The way I would habve approached the data
>>
>> 24510 [vernacular double yud form from tp]
>>
>> 24510 Drai matini kotail
>>
>> 2463  [vernacular single yud form from ESh
>>
>> 2463  Drai martini koktel
>>
>>
>>
>> The reason why this is causing so much trouble is that in our
>> romanization scheme, double yud represents either "ai," the default form,
>> or a XyX where the yud has a degesh (I honestly can't think of any
>> instances where double yud represent a non-dageshed yud hauling a tsere or
>> a segol, but I could be wrong).  So, for my money the best way to treat
>> would be to transcribe what's on the piece according to usual practice
>> (koktail; add a [sic] if you're still using AACR2) and to add the ESh form
>> as an add title.
>>
>>
>>
>> My opnion is my own, and I defer to Those Who Know.
>>
>>
>>
>> Bob
>>
>> On Mon, Oct 21, 2013 at 8:18 AM, Jasmin Nof <jnof at upenn.edu> wrote:
>>
>> So in other words, I ought to add a 24633 for קוקטיל?
>>
>> On 10/21/2013 8:14 AM, Elhanan Adler wrote:
>>
>>  Fyi
>>
>>
>>
>> Standard Israeli practice today is to add 24633s for title in alternate
>> ketiv since, for example the reader usually has no idea if the dictionary
>> he is looking for is titled
>>
>> מלון or מילון
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Elhanan
>>
>>
>>
>> Elhanan Adler
>>
>> Email: elhanana at savion.huji.ac.il
>>
>> Mobile tel.: 972-54-6829657
>>
>> Tel. (home) 972-2-6515977
>>
>> Fax (home): 972-2-6517129
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* heb-naco-bounces at lists.service.ohio-state.edu [
>> mailto:heb-naco-bounces at lists.service.ohio-state.edu<heb-naco-bounces at lists.service.ohio-state.edu>]
>> *On Behalf Of *Jasmin Nof
>> *Sent:* Friday, October 18, 2013 10:54 PM
>> *To:* Heidi G Lerner; Jasmin Nof
>> *Cc:* Hebrew Name Authority Funnel
>> *Subject:* Re: [Heb-NACO] romanization of קוקטייל
>>
>>
>>
>> ok, so i just fixed the 245 to koktel (with appropriate diacritics) and
>> deleted the extraneous 246.  thanks for your prompt response!
>>
>> On 10/18/2013 3:45 PM, Heidi G Lerner wrote:
>>
>>  Oops,
>> I read the e-mail too oquickly about the tsere. I was thinking that it
>> appeared on the resource.
>>
>>
>>
>> No, to the best of my knowledge incorrect romanizations should not be as
>> added in 246s. The LC-PCC PS for 2.3.6.3 offers guidelines and best
>> practices for making variant titles for permutations related to the title
>> proper. There is no discussion onrecording variant or incorrect
>> transliterations (unless found somewhere on the resource). Maher discusses
>> alternative romanizations in Hebraica Cataloging but only in regards to
>> providing alternative romanizations as references to Hebraica names.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>  ------------------------------
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
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>>
>> --
>>
>> Bob Talbott
>>
>> Hebraica Cataloger
>>
>> UC Berkeley
>>
>> 250 Moffitt
>>
>> Berkeley, CA 94720
>>
>>
>>
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