<div dir="ltr">Jasmin,<div>I just opened ES: If we have קוקטיל (with one Yod) we should romanize it as Koktel, but if we have קוקטייל (with two Yods) then it will be Koktail.</div><div><br></div><div>Yossi</div><div><br></div>
</div><div class="gmail_extra"><br clear="all"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><br></div>Joseph (Yossi) Galron-Goldschlaeger<br>E-Mail: <a href="mailto:galron.1@osu.edu" target="_blank">galron.1@osu.edu</a> or <a href="mailto:jgalron@gmail.com" target="_blank">jgalron@gmail.com</a><br>
Tel.: (614) 292-3362, Fax: (614)292-1918<br>Lexicon of Modern Hebrew Literature: <a href="http://go.osu.edu/hebrewlit" target="_blank">http://go.osu.edu/hebrewlit</a><br></div></div>
<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Mon, Oct 21, 2013 at 3:51 PM, Jasmin Nof <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:jnof@upenn.edu" target="_blank">jnof@upenn.edu</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
<div>Except that קוקטייל is vocalized in ES
with a tsere under the tet and a sheva under the one yod; the
second entry form is with two yodim. <br><div><div class="h5">
<br>
On 10/21/2013 3:31 PM, Yossi Galron wrote:<br>
</div></div></div><div><div class="h5">
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">I am agreeing with Rachel and Barry. As far as I
remember it was established that in case of two Yudin we
romanize it as "ai".
<div><br>
<div>I remember I asked about שייקספיר and it was agreed that
it will be Shaikspir and not Shekspir.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>[I guess that in case of שיקספיר it will be Shikspir -
like ויס is Vis]</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Yossi</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br clear="all">
<div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div><br>
</div>
Joseph (Yossi) Galron-Goldschlaeger<br>
E-Mail: <a href="mailto:galron.1@osu.edu" target="_blank">galron.1@osu.edu</a>
or <a href="mailto:jgalron@gmail.com" target="_blank">jgalron@gmail.com</a><br>
Tel.: <a href="tel:%28614%29%20292-3362" value="+16142923362" target="_blank">(614) 292-3362</a>, Fax: <a href="tel:%28614%29292-1918" value="+16142921918" target="_blank">(614)292-1918</a><br>
Lexicon of Modern Hebrew Literature: <a href="http://go.osu.edu/hebrewlit" target="_blank">http://go.osu.edu/hebrewlit</a><br>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Mon, Oct 21, 2013 at 1:45 PM, Jasmin
Nof <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:jnof@upenn.edu" target="_blank">jnof@upenn.edu</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
<div>Well, there isn't much guess-work involved in this
case, is there? And yes, 'ai' for names like Weiss is
appropriate since we're approximating a patah. <br>
<br>
Ohh, times like these make me realize how much we miss
Joan... <span><span> :-) </span></span><br>
<div>
<div> <br>
On 10/21/2013 1:32 PM, Rachel Simon wrote:<br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">I
don’t mind using commonsense, but the way Joan
& co. used to explain these Romanization
issues was that one shouldn’t try to guess the
way a word sound, but Romanize based on the
combination of letters. In any case “ai” also
appears in names like “Vais” = Weiss.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">rachel</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext">
Jasmin Nof [<a href="mailto:jnof@upenn.edu" target="_blank">mailto:jnof@upenn.edu</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, October 21, 2013 1:21
PM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:heb-naco@lists.service.ohio-state.edu" target="_blank">heb-naco@lists.service.ohio-state.edu</a>;
Rachel Simon<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Heb-NACO]
romanization of <span dir="RTL" lang="HE">קוקטייל</span></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">No, the "rules" call for
Ledi; see the romanization chart: a tsere
preceding the yod is 'e'. Granted, <span dir="RTL" lang="HE">ליידי</span><span dir="LTR"></span><span dir="LTR"></span>
doesn't appears in ES, but the sound we're
trying to approximate is that of a tsere.
Romanizing it as 'ai' implies that it rhymes
with "lie".<br>
<br>
On 10/21/2013 12:11 PM, Rachel Simon wrote:</p>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">I
just came across a similar case, this time
with the problematic Romanization in the
first word of the title, cataloged by LC: </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span dir="RTL" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1f497d" lang="HE">הליידי של העיר הלבנה</span><span dir="LTR"></span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><span dir="LTR"></span> = ha-Ledi shel ha-ʻir
ha-levanah</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Don’t
the “rules” call for “Laidi”?</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Rachel</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">
<a href="mailto:heb-naco-bounces+rsimon=princeton.edu@lists.service.ohio-state.edu" target="_blank">heb-naco-bounces+rsimon=princeton.edu@lists.service.ohio-state.edu</a>
[<a href="mailto:heb-naco-bounces+rsimon=princeton.edu@lists.service.ohio-state.edu" target="_blank">mailto:heb-naco-bounces+rsimon=princeton.edu@lists.service.ohio-state.edu</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Manuel Frau-Cortes<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, October 21, 2013
11:46 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Hebrew Name Authority Funnel<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Heb-NACO]
romanization of <span dir="RTL" lang="HE">קוקטייל</span></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">I
do agree with Mr. Talbot. This is a good
solution if we keep in mind the end user and
discoverability. </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Rules
are rules, but I kind of hate it when rules
make impossible for people to find things in
the catalog! Total “deramah” / </span><span dir="RTL" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1f497d" lang="HE">דרמה</span><span dir="LTR"></span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d" lang="CA"><span dir="LTR"></span>.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b> </b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><b>Neil M.
Frau-Cortes</b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">Hebraica Cataloger</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">McKeldin Library</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">University of
Maryland<br>
College Park, MD 20742<br>
Phone <a href="tel:%28301%29%20405-9337" value="+13014059337" target="_blank">(301)
405-9337</a></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><a href="http://nfrau@umd.edu" target="_blank">nfrau@umd.edu</a></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">
<a href="mailto:heb-naco-bounces@lists.service.ohio-state.edu" target="_blank">heb-naco-bounces@lists.service.ohio-state.edu</a>
[<a href="mailto:heb-naco-bounces@lists.service.ohio-state.edu" target="_blank">mailto:heb-naco-bounces@lists.service.ohio-state.edu</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Robert M. TALBOTT<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, October 21, 2013 11:34
AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Hebrew Name Authority Funnel<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Heb-NACO] romanization
of <span dir="RTL" lang="HE">קוקטייל</span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Folks:</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">The way I would habve
approached the data</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">24510 [vernacular double
yud form from tp]</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">24510 Drai matini kotail</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">2463 [vernacular single
yud form from ESh</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">2463 Drai martini koktel</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">The reason why this is
causing so much trouble is that in our
romanization scheme, double yud represents
either "ai," the default form, or a XyX
where the yud has a degesh (I honestly can't
think of any instances where double yud
represent a non-dageshed yud hauling a tsere
or a segol, but I could be wrong). So, for
my money the best way to treat would be to
transcribe what's on the piece according to
usual practice (koktail; add a [sic] if
you're still using AACR2) and to add the ESh
form as an add title.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">My opnion is my own, and
I defer to Those Who Know.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Bob</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Mon, Oct 21, 2013 at
8:18 AM, Jasmin Nof <<a href="mailto:jnof@upenn.edu" target="_blank">jnof@upenn.edu</a>>
wrote:</p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">So in other words, I
ought to add a 24633 for <span dir="RTL" lang="HE"> קוקטיל</span><span dir="LTR"></span><span dir="LTR"></span>?<br>
<br>
On 10/21/2013 8:14 AM, Elhanan Adler
wrote:</p>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Fyi</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Standard
Israeli practice today is to add
24633s for title in alternate ketiv
since, for example the reader
usually has no idea if the
dictionary he is looking for is
titled</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span dir="RTL" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1f497d" lang="HE">מלון</span><span dir="RTL" style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1f497d" lang="HE"> </span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">or
</span><span dir="RTL" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1f497d" lang="HE">מילון</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Elhanan</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Elhanan
Adler </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Email:
<a href="mailto:elhanana@savion.huji.ac.il" target="_blank">elhanana@savion.huji.ac.il</a></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Mobile
tel.: 972-54-6829657</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Tel.
(home) 972-2-6515977</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Fax
(home): 972-2-6517129</span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">
<a href="mailto:heb-naco-bounces@lists.service.ohio-state.edu" target="_blank">heb-naco-bounces@lists.service.ohio-state.edu</a>
[<a href="mailto:heb-naco-bounces@lists.service.ohio-state.edu" target="_blank">mailto:heb-naco-bounces@lists.service.ohio-state.edu</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Jasmin Nof<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, October 18,
2013 10:54 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Heidi G Lerner;
Jasmin Nof<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Hebrew Name Authority
Funnel<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Heb-NACO]
romanization of <span dir="RTL" lang="HE">קוקטייל</span></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">ok, so i just
fixed the 245 to koktel (with
appropriate diacritics) and deleted
the extraneous 246. thanks for your
prompt response!<br>
<br>
On 10/18/2013 3:45 PM, Heidi G
Lerner wrote:</p>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">Oops,
<br>
I read the e-mail too oquickly
about the tsere. I was
thinking that it appeared on
the resource. </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">No,
to the best of my knowledge
incorrect romanizations should
not be as added in 246s. The
LC-PCC PS for 2.3.6.3 offers
guidelines and best practices
for making variant titles for
permutations related to the
title proper. There is no
discussion onrecording variant
or incorrect transliterations
(unless found somewhere on the
resource). Maher discusses
alternative romanizations in
Hebraica Cataloging but only
in regards to providing
alternative romanizations as
references to Hebraica names.</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""> </span></p>
</div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:center" align="center"><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">
<hr align="center" size="2" width="100%"> </span></div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"> </p>
<pre>_______________________________________________</pre>
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</blockquote>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
_______________________________________________<br>
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</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
<br clear="all">
<br>
-- </p>
<div>
<pre>Bob Talbott</pre>
<pre>Hebraica Cataloger</pre>
<pre>UC Berkeley</pre>
<pre>250 Moffitt</pre>
<pre>Berkeley, CA 94720</pre>
<pre> </pre>
<pre>We're happy as fish,</pre>
<pre>as gorgeous as geese,</pre>
<pre>and wonderfully clean in the morning.</pre>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
<br>
<br>
</p>
<pre>_______________________________________________</pre>
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</div>
</blockquote>
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<fieldset></fieldset>
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