[Heb-NACO] romanization of קוקטייל
Jasmin Nof
jnof at upenn.edu
Mon Oct 21 15:51:55 EDT 2013
Except that קוקטייל is vocalized in ES with a tsere under the tet and a
sheva under the one yod; the second entry form is with two yodim.
On 10/21/2013 3:31 PM, Yossi Galron wrote:
> I am agreeing with Rachel and Barry. As far as I remember it was
> established that in case of two Yudin we romanize it as "ai".
>
> I remember I asked about שייקספיר and it was agreed that it will be
> Shaikspir and not Shekspir.
>
> [I guess that in case of שיקספיר it will be Shikspir - like ויס is Vis]
>
> Yossi
>
>
>
>
> Joseph (Yossi) Galron-Goldschlaeger
> E-Mail: galron.1 at osu.edu <mailto:galron.1 at osu.edu> or
> jgalron at gmail.com <mailto:jgalron at gmail.com>
> Tel.: (614) 292-3362, Fax: (614)292-1918
> Lexicon of Modern Hebrew Literature: http://go.osu.edu/hebrewlit
>
>
> On Mon, Oct 21, 2013 at 1:45 PM, Jasmin Nof <jnof at upenn.edu
> <mailto:jnof at upenn.edu>> wrote:
>
> Well, there isn't much guess-work involved in this case, is
> there? And yes, 'ai' for names like Weiss is appropriate since
> we're approximating a patah.
>
> Ohh, times like these make me realize how much we miss Joan... :-)
>
> On 10/21/2013 1:32 PM, Rachel Simon wrote:
>>
>> I don’t mind using commonsense, but the way Joan & co. used to
>> explain these Romanization issues was that one shouldn’t try to
>> guess the way a word sound, but Romanize based on the combination
>> of letters. In any case “ai” also appears in names like “Vais” =
>> Weiss.
>>
>> rachel
>>
>> *From:*Jasmin Nof [mailto:jnof at upenn.edu]
>> *Sent:* Monday, October 21, 2013 1:21 PM
>> *To:* heb-naco at lists.service.ohio-state.edu
>> <mailto:heb-naco at lists.service.ohio-state.edu>; Rachel Simon
>> *Subject:* Re: [Heb-NACO] romanization of קוקטייל
>>
>> No, the "rules" call for Ledi; see the romanization chart: a
>> tsere preceding the yod is 'e'. Granted, ליידיdoesn't appears in
>> ES, but the sound we're trying to approximate is that of a tsere.
>> Romanizing it as 'ai' implies that it rhymes with "lie".
>>
>> On 10/21/2013 12:11 PM, Rachel Simon wrote:
>>
>> I just came across a similar case, this time with the
>> problematic Romanization in the first word of the title,
>> cataloged by LC:
>>
>> הליידי של העיר הלבנה = ha-Ledi shel ha-ʻir ha-levanah
>>
>> Don’t the “rules” call for “Laidi”?
>>
>> Rachel
>>
>> *From:*heb-naco-bounces+rsimon=princeton.edu at lists.service.ohio-state.edu
>> <mailto:heb-naco-bounces+rsimon=princeton.edu at lists.service.ohio-state.edu>
>> [mailto:heb-naco-bounces+rsimon=princeton.edu at lists.service.ohio-state.edu]
>> *On Behalf Of *Manuel Frau-Cortes
>> *Sent:* Monday, October 21, 2013 11:46 AM
>> *To:* Hebrew Name Authority Funnel
>> *Subject:* Re: [Heb-NACO] romanization of קוקטייל
>>
>> I do agree with Mr. Talbot. This is a good solution if we
>> keep in mind the end user and discoverability.
>>
>> Rules are rules, but I kind of hate it when rules make
>> impossible for people to find things in the catalog! Total
>> “deramah” / דרמה.
>>
>> **
>>
>> *Neil M. Frau-Cortes*
>>
>> Hebraica Cataloger
>>
>> McKeldin Library
>>
>> University of Maryland
>> College Park, MD 20742
>> Phone (301) 405-9337 <tel:%28301%29%20405-9337>
>>
>> nfrau at umd.edu <http://nfrau@umd.edu>
>>
>> *From:*heb-naco-bounces at lists.service.ohio-state.edu
>> <mailto:heb-naco-bounces at lists.service.ohio-state.edu>
>> [mailto:heb-naco-bounces at lists.service.ohio-state.edu] *On
>> Behalf Of *Robert M. TALBOTT
>> *Sent:* Monday, October 21, 2013 11:34 AM
>> *To:* Hebrew Name Authority Funnel
>> *Subject:* Re: [Heb-NACO] romanization of קוקטייל
>>
>> Folks:
>>
>> The way I would habve approached the data
>>
>> 24510 [vernacular double yud form from tp]
>>
>> 24510 Drai matini kotail
>>
>> 2463 [vernacular single yud form from ESh
>>
>> 2463 Drai martini koktel
>>
>> The reason why this is causing so much trouble is that in our
>> romanization scheme, double yud represents either "ai," the
>> default form, or a XyX where the yud has a degesh (I honestly
>> can't think of any instances where double yud represent a
>> non-dageshed yud hauling a tsere or a segol, but I could be
>> wrong). So, for my money the best way to treat would be to
>> transcribe what's on the piece according to usual practice
>> (koktail; add a [sic] if you're still using AACR2) and to add
>> the ESh form as an add title.
>>
>> My opnion is my own, and I defer to Those Who Know.
>>
>> Bob
>>
>> On Mon, Oct 21, 2013 at 8:18 AM, Jasmin Nof <jnof at upenn.edu
>> <mailto:jnof at upenn.edu>> wrote:
>>
>> So in other words, I ought to add a 24633 for קוקטיל?
>>
>> On 10/21/2013 8:14 AM, Elhanan Adler wrote:
>>
>> Fyi
>>
>> Standard Israeli practice today is to add 24633s for
>> title in alternate ketiv since, for example the reader
>> usually has no idea if the dictionary he is looking for
>> is titled
>>
>> מלוןor מילון
>>
>> Elhanan
>>
>> Elhanan Adler
>>
>> Email: elhanana at savion.huji.ac.il
>> <mailto:elhanana at savion.huji.ac.il>
>>
>> Mobile tel.: 972-54-6829657
>>
>> Tel. (home) 972-2-6515977
>>
>> Fax (home): 972-2-6517129
>>
>> *From:*heb-naco-bounces at lists.service.ohio-state.edu
>> <mailto:heb-naco-bounces at lists.service.ohio-state.edu>
>> [mailto:heb-naco-bounces at lists.service.ohio-state.edu]
>> *On Behalf Of *Jasmin Nof
>> *Sent:* Friday, October 18, 2013 10:54 PM
>> *To:* Heidi G Lerner; Jasmin Nof
>> *Cc:* Hebrew Name Authority Funnel
>> *Subject:* Re: [Heb-NACO] romanization of קוקטייל
>>
>> ok, so i just fixed the 245 to koktel (with appropriate
>> diacritics) and deleted the extraneous 246. thanks for
>> your prompt response!
>>
>> On 10/18/2013 3:45 PM, Heidi G Lerner wrote:
>>
>> Oops,
>> I read the e-mail too oquickly about the tsere. I was
>> thinking that it appeared on the resource.
>>
>> No, to the best of my knowledge incorrect
>> romanizations should not be as added in 246s. The
>> LC-PCC PS for 2.3.6.3 offers guidelines and best
>> practices for making variant titles for permutations
>> related to the title proper. There is no discussion
>> onrecording variant or incorrect transliterations
>> (unless found somewhere on the resource). Maher
>> discusses alternative romanizations in Hebraica
>> Cataloging but only in regards to providing
>> alternative romanizations as references to Hebraica
>> names.
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
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>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> Bob Talbott
>>
>> Hebraica Cataloger
>>
>> UC Berkeley
>>
>> 250 Moffitt
>>
>> Berkeley, CA 94720
>>
>>
>>
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