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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Except that קוקטייל is vocalized in ES
with a tsere under the tet and a sheva under the one yod; the
second entry form is with two yodim. <br>
<br>
On 10/21/2013 3:31 PM, Yossi Galron wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CAFvrzv4dS-8mBd3Rj=Vi3J6ZV9H0Jdf79nGzSjZF8uJAoistHQ@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">I am agreeing with Rachel and Barry. As far as I
remember it was established that in case of two Yudin we
romanize it as "ai".
<div><br>
<div>I remember I asked about שייקספיר and it was agreed that
it will be Shaikspir and not Shekspir.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>[I guess that in case of שיקספיר it will be Shikspir -
like ויס is Vis]</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Yossi</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br clear="all">
<div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div><br>
</div>
Joseph (Yossi) Galron-Goldschlaeger<br>
E-Mail: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:galron.1@osu.edu" target="_blank">galron.1@osu.edu</a>
or <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:jgalron@gmail.com" target="_blank">jgalron@gmail.com</a><br>
Tel.: (614) 292-3362, Fax: (614)292-1918<br>
Lexicon of Modern Hebrew Literature: <a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://go.osu.edu/hebrewlit"
target="_blank">http://go.osu.edu/hebrewlit</a><br>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Mon, Oct 21, 2013 at 1:45 PM, Jasmin
Nof <span dir="ltr"><<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:jnof@upenn.edu" target="_blank">jnof@upenn.edu</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
<div>Well, there isn't much guess-work involved in this
case, is there? And yes, 'ai' for names like Weiss is
appropriate since we're approximating a patah. <br>
<br>
Ohh, times like these make me realize how much we miss
Joan... <span><span> :-) </span></span><br>
<div>
<div class="h5"> <br>
On 10/21/2013 1:32 PM, Rachel Simon wrote:<br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div class="h5">
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">I
don’t mind using commonsense, but the way Joan
& co. used to explain these Romanization
issues was that one shouldn’t try to guess the
way a word sound, but Romanize based on the
combination of letters. In any case “ai” also
appears in names like “Vais” = Weiss.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">rachel</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext">
Jasmin Nof [<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:jnof@upenn.edu"
target="_blank">mailto:jnof@upenn.edu</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, October 21, 2013 1:21
PM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:heb-naco@lists.service.ohio-state.edu"
target="_blank">heb-naco@lists.service.ohio-state.edu</a>;
Rachel Simon<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Heb-NACO]
romanization of <span dir="RTL" lang="HE">קוקטייל</span></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">No, the "rules" call for
Ledi; see the romanization chart: a tsere
preceding the yod is 'e'. Granted, <span
dir="RTL" lang="HE">ליידי</span><span
dir="LTR"></span><span dir="LTR"></span>
doesn't appears in ES, but the sound we're
trying to approximate is that of a tsere.
Romanizing it as 'ai' implies that it rhymes
with "lie".<br>
<br>
On 10/21/2013 12:11 PM, Rachel Simon wrote:</p>
</div>
<blockquote
style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">I
just came across a similar case, this time
with the problematic Romanization in the
first word of the title, cataloged by LC: </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span dir="RTL"
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"
lang="HE">הליידי של העיר הלבנה</span><span
dir="LTR"></span><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><span
dir="LTR"></span> = ha-Ledi shel ha-ʻir
ha-levanah</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Don’t
the “rules” call for “Laidi”?</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Rachel</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid
#b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:heb-naco-bounces+rsimon=princeton.edu@lists.service.ohio-state.edu"
target="_blank">heb-naco-bounces+rsimon=princeton.edu@lists.service.ohio-state.edu</a>
[<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:heb-naco-bounces+rsimon=princeton.edu@lists.service.ohio-state.edu"
target="_blank">mailto:heb-naco-bounces+rsimon=princeton.edu@lists.service.ohio-state.edu</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Manuel Frau-Cortes<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, October 21, 2013
11:46 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Hebrew Name Authority Funnel<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Heb-NACO]
romanization of <span dir="RTL"
lang="HE">קוקטייל</span></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">I
do agree with Mr. Talbot. This is a good
solution if we keep in mind the end user and
discoverability. </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Rules
are rules, but I kind of hate it when rules
make impossible for people to find things in
the catalog! Total “deramah” / </span><span
dir="RTL"
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"
lang="HE">דרמה</span><span dir="LTR"></span><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"
lang="CA"><span dir="LTR"></span>.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b> </b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><b>Neil M.
Frau-Cortes</b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt">Hebraica Cataloger</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt">McKeldin Library</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt">University of
Maryland<br>
College Park, MD 20742<br>
Phone <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="tel:%28301%29%20405-9337"
value="+13014059337" target="_blank">(301)
405-9337</a></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://nfrau@umd.edu"
target="_blank">nfrau@umd.edu</a></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:heb-naco-bounces@lists.service.ohio-state.edu"
target="_blank">heb-naco-bounces@lists.service.ohio-state.edu</a>
[<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:heb-naco-bounces@lists.service.ohio-state.edu"
target="_blank">mailto:heb-naco-bounces@lists.service.ohio-state.edu</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Robert M. TALBOTT<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, October 21, 2013 11:34
AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Hebrew Name Authority Funnel<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Heb-NACO] romanization
of <span dir="RTL" lang="HE">קוקטייל</span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Folks:</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">The way I would habve
approached the data</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">24510 [vernacular double
yud form from tp]</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">24510 Drai matini kotail</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">2463 [vernacular single
yud form from ESh</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">2463 Drai martini koktel</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">The reason why this is
causing so much trouble is that in our
romanization scheme, double yud represents
either "ai," the default form, or a XyX
where the yud has a degesh (I honestly can't
think of any instances where double yud
represent a non-dageshed yud hauling a tsere
or a segol, but I could be wrong). So, for
my money the best way to treat would be to
transcribe what's on the piece according to
usual practice (koktail; add a [sic] if
you're still using AACR2) and to add the ESh
form as an add title.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">My opnion is my own, and
I defer to Those Who Know.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Bob</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Mon, Oct 21, 2013 at
8:18 AM, Jasmin Nof <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:jnof@upenn.edu"
target="_blank">jnof@upenn.edu</a>>
wrote:</p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">So in other words, I
ought to add a 24633 for <span
dir="RTL" lang="HE"> קוקטיל</span><span
dir="LTR"></span><span dir="LTR"></span>?<br>
<br>
On 10/21/2013 8:14 AM, Elhanan Adler
wrote:</p>
</div>
<blockquote
style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Fyi</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Standard
Israeli practice today is to add
24633s for title in alternate ketiv
since, for example the reader
usually has no idea if the
dictionary he is looking for is
titled</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span dir="RTL"
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"
lang="HE">מלון</span><span dir="RTL"
style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1f497d" lang="HE"> </span><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">or
</span><span dir="RTL"
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"
lang="HE">מילון</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Elhanan</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Elhanan
Adler </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Email:
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:elhanana@savion.huji.ac.il"
target="_blank">elhanana@savion.huji.ac.il</a></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Mobile
tel.: 972-54-6829657</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Tel.
(home) 972-2-6515977</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Fax
(home): 972-2-6517129</span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<div>
<div
style="border:none;border-top:solid
#b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in
0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:heb-naco-bounces@lists.service.ohio-state.edu"
target="_blank">heb-naco-bounces@lists.service.ohio-state.edu</a>
[<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:heb-naco-bounces@lists.service.ohio-state.edu"
target="_blank">mailto:heb-naco-bounces@lists.service.ohio-state.edu</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Jasmin Nof<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, October 18,
2013 10:54 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Heidi G Lerner;
Jasmin Nof<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Hebrew Name Authority
Funnel<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Heb-NACO]
romanization of <span dir="RTL"
lang="HE">קוקטייל</span></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">ok, so i just
fixed the 245 to koktel (with
appropriate diacritics) and deleted
the extraneous 246. thanks for your
prompt response!<br>
<br>
On 10/18/2013 3:45 PM, Heidi G
Lerner wrote:</p>
</div>
<blockquote
style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">Oops,
<br>
I read the e-mail too oquickly
about the tsere. I was
thinking that it appeared on
the resource. </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">No,
to the best of my knowledge
incorrect romanizations should
not be as added in 246s. The
LC-PCC PS for 2.3.6.3 offers
guidelines and best practices
for making variant titles for
permutations related to the
title proper. There is no
discussion onrecording variant
or incorrect transliterations
(unless found somewhere on the
resource). Maher discusses
alternative romanizations in
Hebraica Cataloging but only
in regards to providing
alternative romanizations as
references to Hebraica names.</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""> </span></p>
</div>
<div class="MsoNormal"
style="text-align:center"
align="center"><span
style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">
<hr align="center" size="2"
width="100%"> </span></div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"> </p>
<pre>_______________________________________________</pre>
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<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
_______________________________________________<br>
Heb-naco mailing list<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
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</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
<br clear="all">
<br>
-- </p>
<div>
<pre>Bob Talbott</pre>
<pre>Hebraica Cataloger</pre>
<pre>UC Berkeley</pre>
<pre>250 Moffitt</pre>
<pre>Berkeley, CA 94720</pre>
<pre> </pre>
<pre>We're happy as fish,</pre>
<pre>as gorgeous as geese,</pre>
<pre>and wonderfully clean in the morning.</pre>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
<br>
<br>
</p>
<pre>_______________________________________________</pre>
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</blockquote>
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