[Heb-NACO] romanization of קוקטייל

[Jasmin Nof]

Yes, Rachel, good memory!  I found in my files an email correspondence 
with Joan from 2007, at least regarding names:

"Those attempting to follow the ALA/LC romanization table for Hebrew are 
restricted to the equivalences it offers. Consonant-yod-yod can only be 
romanized as consonant-ai. Consonant-single yod can be romanized as 
consonant-e (assuming a tsere or segol) if appropriate."

Hence "Burshtain", "Rubenshtain", "Bailin", etc.  Since this only 
applies to names, though (at least, as far as I'm aware), I'm not sure 
where that leaves us in the case of nouns such as קוקטייל and ליידי, 
where the vocalization under the preceding consonant is a tsere.  To 
romanize them as koktail and laidi would be to disregard the 
vocalization under the consonant.

Jasmin

On 10/21/2013 3:50 PM, Rachel Simon wrote:
> As far as I remember, after a long time the "pundits" have somewhat mellowed, and agreed, regarding names) that if we have clear evidence in the text that one yud should really correspond to the "ei" sound, it's Ok to Romanize it as "ai". But I think this was never commited to writing, only "torah shebe-al-peh"
>
> Rachel
> ________________________________________
> From: heb-naco-bounces at lists.service.ohio-state.edu [heb-naco-bounces at lists.service.ohio-state.edu] on behalf of Yossi Galron [jgalron at gmail.com]
> Sent: Monday, October 21, 2013 3:31 PM
> To: Hebrew Name Authority Funnel
> Subject: Re: [Heb-NACO] romanization of קוקטייל
>
> I am agreeing with Rachel and Barry. As far as I remember it was established that in case of two Yudin we romanize it as "ai".
>
> I remember I asked about שייקספיר and it was agreed that it will be Shaikspir and not Shekspir.
>
> [I guess that in case of שיקספיר it will be Shikspir - like ויס is Vis]
>
> Yossi
>
>
>
>
> Joseph (Yossi) Galron-Goldschlaeger
> E-Mail: galron.1 at osu.edu<mailto:galron.1 at osu.edu>  or jgalron at gmail.com<mailto:jgalron at gmail.com>
> Tel.: (614) 292-3362,  Fax: (614)292-1918
> Lexicon of Modern Hebrew Literature: http://go.osu.edu/hebrewlit
>
>
> On Mon, Oct 21, 2013 at 1:45 PM, Jasmin Nof <jnof at upenn.edu<mailto:jnof at upenn.edu>> wrote:
> Well, there isn't much guess-work involved in this case, is there?  And yes, 'ai' for names like Weiss is appropriate since we're approximating a patah.
>
> Ohh, times like these make me realize how much we miss Joan... :-)
>
> On 10/21/2013 1:32 PM, Rachel Simon wrote:
> I don’t mind using commonsense, but the way Joan & co. used to explain these Romanization issues was that one shouldn’t try to guess the way a word sound, but Romanize based on the combination of letters. In any case “ai” also appears in names like “Vais” = Weiss.
>
> rachel
>
> From: Jasmin Nof [mailto:jnof at upenn.edu]
> Sent: Monday, October 21, 2013 1:21 PM
> To: heb-naco at lists.service.ohio-state.edu<mailto:heb-naco at lists.service.ohio-state.edu>; Rachel Simon
> Subject: Re: [Heb-NACO] romanization of קוקטייל
>
> No, the "rules" call for Ledi; see the romanization chart: a tsere preceding the yod is 'e'.  Granted, ליידי doesn't appears in ES, but the sound we're trying to approximate is that of a tsere.  Romanizing it as 'ai' implies that it rhymes with "lie".
>
> On 10/21/2013 12:11 PM, Rachel Simon wrote:
> I just came across a similar case, this time with the problematic Romanization in the first word of the title, cataloged by LC:
>
> הליידי של העיר הלבנה  =  ha-Ledi shel ha-ʻir ha-levanah
>
> Don’t the “rules” call for “Laidi”?
>
> Rachel
>
> From: heb-naco-bounces+rsimon=princeton.edu at lists.service.ohio-state.edu<mailto:heb-naco-bounces+rsimon=princeton.edu at lists.service.ohio-state.edu> [mailto:heb-naco-bounces+rsimon=princeton.edu at lists.service.ohio-state.edu] On Behalf Of Manuel Frau-Cortes
> Sent: Monday, October 21, 2013 11:46 AM
> To: Hebrew Name Authority Funnel
> Subject: Re: [Heb-NACO] romanization of קוקטייל
>
> I do agree with Mr. Talbot. This is a good solution if we keep in mind the end user and discoverability.
>
> Rules are rules, but I kind of hate it when rules make impossible for people to find things in the catalog! Total “deramah” / דרמה.
>
>
> Neil M. Frau-Cortes
> Hebraica Cataloger
> McKeldin Library
> University of Maryland
> College Park, MD 20742
> Phone (301) 405-9337<tel:%28301%29%20405-9337>
> nfrau at umd.edu<http://nfrau@umd.edu>
>
> From: heb-naco-bounces at lists.service.ohio-state.edu<mailto:heb-naco-bounces at lists.service.ohio-state.edu> [mailto:heb-naco-bounces at lists.service.ohio-state.edu] On Behalf Of Robert M. TALBOTT
> Sent: Monday, October 21, 2013 11:34 AM
> To: Hebrew Name Authority Funnel
> Subject: Re: [Heb-NACO] romanization of קוקטייל
>
> Folks:
>
> The way I would habve approached the data
> 24510 [vernacular double yud form from tp]
> 24510 Drai matini kotail
> 2463  [vernacular single yud form from ESh
> 2463  Drai martini koktel
>
> The reason why this is causing so much trouble is that in our romanization scheme, double yud represents either "ai," the default form, or a XyX where the yud has a degesh (I honestly can't think of any instances where double yud represent a non-dageshed yud hauling a tsere or a segol, but I could be wrong).  So, for my money the best way to treat would be to transcribe what's on the piece according to usual practice (koktail; add a [sic] if you're still using AACR2) and to add the ESh form as an add title.
>
> My opnion is my own, and I defer to Those Who Know.
>
> Bob
> On Mon, Oct 21, 2013 at 8:18 AM, Jasmin Nof <jnof at upenn.edu<mailto:jnof at upenn.edu>> wrote:
> So in other words, I ought to add a 24633 for קוקטיל?
>
> On 10/21/2013 8:14 AM, Elhanan Adler wrote:
> Fyi
>
> Standard Israeli practice today is to add 24633s for title in alternate ketiv since, for example the reader usually has no idea if the dictionary he is looking for is titled
> מלון or מילון
>
>
> Elhanan
>
> Elhanan Adler
> Email: elhanana at savion.huji.ac.il<mailto:elhanana at savion.huji.ac.il>
> Mobile tel.: 972-54-6829657
> Tel. (home) 972-2-6515977
> Fax (home): 972-2-6517129
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> From: heb-naco-bounces at lists.service.ohio-state.edu<mailto:heb-naco-bounces at lists.service.ohio-state.edu> [mailto:heb-naco-bounces at lists.service.ohio-state.edu] On Behalf Of Jasmin Nof
> Sent: Friday, October 18, 2013 10:54 PM
> To: Heidi G Lerner; Jasmin Nof
> Cc: Hebrew Name Authority Funnel
> Subject: Re: [Heb-NACO] romanization of קוקטייל
>
> ok, so i just fixed the 245 to koktel (with appropriate diacritics) and deleted the extraneous 246.  thanks for your prompt response!
>
> On 10/18/2013 3:45 PM, Heidi G Lerner wrote:
> Oops,
> I read the e-mail too oquickly about the tsere. I was thinking that it appeared on the resource.
>
> No, to the best of my knowledge incorrect romanizations should not be as added in 246s. The LC-PCC PS for 2.3.6.3 offers guidelines and best practices for making variant titles for permutations related to the title proper. There is no discussion onrecording variant or incorrect transliterations (unless found somewhere on the resource). Maher discusses alternative romanizations in Hebraica Cataloging but only in regards to providing alternative romanizations as references to Hebraica names.
>
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> --
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> Bob Talbott
>
> Hebraica Cataloger
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> UC Berkeley
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