[Heb-NACO] romanization of קוקטייל

Mon Oct 21 16:02:48 EDT 2013

and how will all of this help any users, anywhere?

Aaron Kuperman, LC Law Cataloging Section.
This is not an official communication from my employer

From: heb-naco-bounces+akup=loc.gov at lists.service.ohio-state.edu [mailto:heb-naco-bounces+akup=loc.gov at lists.service.ohio-state.edu] On Behalf Of Yossi Galron
Sent: Monday, October 21, 2013 3:59 PM
To: Hebrew Name Authority Funnel
Subject: Re: [Heb-NACO] romanization of קוקטייל

Jasmin,
I just opened ES: If we have קוקטיל (with one Yod) we should romanize it as Koktel, but if we have קוקטייל (with two Yods) then it will be Koktail.

Yossi

Joseph (Yossi) Galron-Goldschlaeger
E-Mail: galron.1 at osu.edu<mailto:galron.1 at osu.edu>  or jgalron at gmail.com<mailto:jgalron at gmail.com>
Tel.: (614) 292-3362,  Fax: (614)292-1918
Lexicon of Modern Hebrew Literature: http://go.osu.edu/hebrewlit

On Mon, Oct 21, 2013 at 3:51 PM, Jasmin Nof <jnof at upenn.edu<mailto:jnof at upenn.edu>> wrote:
Except that קוקטייל is vocalized in ES with a tsere under the tet and a sheva under the one yod; the second entry form is with two yodim.

On 10/21/2013 3:31 PM, Yossi Galron wrote:
I am agreeing with Rachel and Barry. As far as I remember it was established that in case of two Yudin we romanize it as "ai".

I remember I asked about שייקספיר and it was agreed that it will be Shaikspir and not Shekspir.

[I guess that in case of שיקספיר it will be Shikspir - like ויס is Vis]

Yossi

Joseph (Yossi) Galron-Goldschlaeger
E-Mail: galron.1 at osu.edu<mailto:galron.1 at osu.edu>  or jgalron at gmail.com<mailto:jgalron at gmail.com>
Tel.: (614) 292-3362<tel:%28614%29%20292-3362>,  Fax: (614)292-1918<tel:%28614%29292-1918>
Lexicon of Modern Hebrew Literature: http://go.osu.edu/hebrewlit

On Mon, Oct 21, 2013 at 1:45 PM, Jasmin Nof <jnof at upenn.edu<mailto:jnof at upenn.edu>> wrote:
Well, there isn't much guess-work involved in this case, is there?  And yes, 'ai' for names like Weiss is appropriate since we're approximating a patah.

Ohh, times like these make me realize how much we miss Joan... :-)

On 10/21/2013 1:32 PM, Rachel Simon wrote:
I don’t mind using commonsense, but the way Joan & co. used to explain these Romanization issues was that one shouldn’t try to guess the way a word sound, but Romanize based on the combination of letters. In any case “ai” also appears in names like “Vais” = Weiss.

rachel

From: Jasmin Nof [mailto:jnof at upenn.edu]
Sent: Monday, October 21, 2013 1:21 PM
To: heb-naco at lists.service.ohio-state.edu<mailto:heb-naco at lists.service.ohio-state.edu>; Rachel Simon
Subject: Re: [Heb-NACO] romanization of קוקטייל

No, the "rules" call for Ledi; see the romanization chart: a tsere preceding the yod is 'e'.  Granted, ליידי doesn't appears in ES, but the sound we're trying to approximate is that of a tsere.  Romanizing it as 'ai' implies that it rhymes with "lie".

On 10/21/2013 12:11 PM, Rachel Simon wrote:
I just came across a similar case, this time with the problematic Romanization in the first word of the title, cataloged by LC:

הליידי של העיר הלבנה  =  ha-Ledi shel ha-ʻir ha-levanah

Don’t the “rules” call for “Laidi”?

Rachel

From: heb-naco-bounces+rsimon=princeton.edu at lists.service.ohio-state.edu<mailto:heb-naco-bounces+rsimon=princeton.edu at lists.service.ohio-state.edu> [mailto:heb-naco-bounces+rsimon=princeton.edu at lists.service.ohio-state.edu] On Behalf Of Manuel Frau-Cortes
Sent: Monday, October 21, 2013 11:46 AM
To: Hebrew Name Authority Funnel
Subject: Re: [Heb-NACO] romanization of קוקטייל

I do agree with Mr. Talbot. This is a good solution if we keep in mind the end user and discoverability.

Rules are rules, but I kind of hate it when rules make impossible for people to find things in the catalog! Total “deramah” / דרמה.

Neil M. Frau-Cortes
Hebraica Cataloger
McKeldin Library
University of Maryland
College Park, MD 20742
Phone (301) 405-9337<tel:%28301%29%20405-9337>
nfrau at umd.edu<http://nfrau@umd.edu>

From: heb-naco-bounces at lists.service.ohio-state.edu<mailto:heb-naco-bounces at lists.service.ohio-state.edu> [mailto:heb-naco-bounces at lists.service.ohio-state.edu] On Behalf Of Robert M. TALBOTT
Sent: Monday, October 21, 2013 11:34 AM
To: Hebrew Name Authority Funnel
Subject: Re: [Heb-NACO] romanization of קוקטייל

Folks:

The way I would habve approached the data
24510 [vernacular double yud form from tp]
24510 Drai matini kotail
2463  [vernacular single yud form from ESh
2463  Drai martini koktel

The reason why this is causing so much trouble is that in our romanization scheme, double yud represents either "ai," the default form, or a XyX where the yud has a degesh (I honestly can't think of any instances where double yud represent a non-dageshed yud hauling a tsere or a segol, but I could be wrong).  So, for my money the best way to treat would be to transcribe what's on the piece according to usual practice (koktail; add a [sic] if you're still using AACR2) and to add the ESh form as an add title.

My opnion is my own, and I defer to Those Who Know.

Bob
On Mon, Oct 21, 2013 at 8:18 AM, Jasmin Nof <jnof at upenn.edu<mailto:jnof at upenn.edu>> wrote:
So in other words, I ought to add a 24633 for קוקטיל?

On 10/21/2013 8:14 AM, Elhanan Adler wrote:
Fyi

Standard Israeli practice today is to add 24633s for title in alternate ketiv since, for example the reader usually has no idea if the dictionary he is looking for is titled
מלון or מילון

Elhanan

Elhanan Adler
Email: elhanana at savion.huji.ac.il<mailto:elhanana at savion.huji.ac.il>
Mobile tel.: 972-54-6829657
Tel. (home) 972-2-6515977
Fax (home): 972-2-6517129

From: heb-naco-bounces at lists.service.ohio-state.edu<mailto:heb-naco-bounces at lists.service.ohio-state.edu> [mailto:heb-naco-bounces at lists.service.ohio-state.edu] On Behalf Of Jasmin Nof
Sent: Friday, October 18, 2013 10:54 PM
To: Heidi G Lerner; Jasmin Nof
Cc: Hebrew Name Authority Funnel
Subject: Re: [Heb-NACO] romanization of קוקטייל

ok, so i just fixed the 245 to koktel (with appropriate diacritics) and deleted the extraneous 246.  thanks for your prompt response!

On 10/18/2013 3:45 PM, Heidi G Lerner wrote:
Oops,
I read the e-mail too oquickly about the tsere. I was thinking that it appeared on the resource.

No, to the best of my knowledge incorrect romanizations should not be as added in 246s. The LC-PCC PS for 2.3.6.3 offers guidelines and best practices for making variant titles for permutations related to the title proper. There is no discussion onrecording variant or incorrect transliterations (unless found somewhere on the resource). Maher discusses alternative romanizations in Hebraica Cataloging but only in regards to providing alternative romanizations as references to Hebraica names.

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--

Bob Talbott

Hebraica Cataloger

UC Berkeley

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