[Heb-NACO] romanization of קוקטייל
Jasmin Nof
jnof at upenn.edu
Mon Oct 21 16:11:33 EDT 2013
But isn't the second entry there just to show alternate spelling, not
alternate vocalization?
If I'm a patron, and I see דריי vocalized 'ai' and קוקטייל vocalized
'ai', I would think the two are supposed to be pronounced the same, i.e.
rhyme. Isn't the whole point of romanization to try to approximate
pronunciation?
On 10/21/2013 3:58 PM, Yossi Galron wrote:
> Jasmin,
> I just opened ES: If we have קוקטיל (with one Yod) we should romanize
> it as Koktel, but if we have קוקטייל (with two Yods) then it will be
> Koktail.
>
> Yossi
>
>
>
> Joseph (Yossi) Galron-Goldschlaeger
> E-Mail: galron.1 at osu.edu <mailto:galron.1 at osu.edu> or
> jgalron at gmail.com <mailto:jgalron at gmail.com>
> Tel.: (614) 292-3362, Fax: (614)292-1918
> Lexicon of Modern Hebrew Literature: http://go.osu.edu/hebrewlit
>
>
> On Mon, Oct 21, 2013 at 3:51 PM, Jasmin Nof <jnof at upenn.edu
> <mailto:jnof at upenn.edu>> wrote:
>
> Except that קוקטייל is vocalized in ES with a tsere under the tet
> and a sheva under the one yod; the second entry form is with two
> yodim.
>
> On 10/21/2013 3:31 PM, Yossi Galron wrote:
>> I am agreeing with Rachel and Barry. As far as I remember it was
>> established that in case of two Yudin we romanize it as "ai".
>>
>> I remember I asked about שייקספיר and it was agreed that it will
>> be Shaikspir and not Shekspir.
>>
>> [I guess that in case of שיקספיר it will be Shikspir - like ויס
>> is Vis]
>>
>> Yossi
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Joseph (Yossi) Galron-Goldschlaeger
>> E-Mail: galron.1 at osu.edu <mailto:galron.1 at osu.edu> or
>> jgalron at gmail.com <mailto:jgalron at gmail.com>
>> Tel.: (614) 292-3362 <tel:%28614%29%20292-3362>, Fax:
>> (614)292-1918 <tel:%28614%29292-1918>
>> Lexicon of Modern Hebrew Literature: http://go.osu.edu/hebrewlit
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Oct 21, 2013 at 1:45 PM, Jasmin Nof <jnof at upenn.edu
>> <mailto:jnof at upenn.edu>> wrote:
>>
>> Well, there isn't much guess-work involved in this case, is
>> there? And yes, 'ai' for names like Weiss is appropriate
>> since we're approximating a patah.
>>
>> Ohh, times like these make me realize how much we miss
>> Joan... :-)
>>
>> On 10/21/2013 1:32 PM, Rachel Simon wrote:
>>>
>>> I don’t mind using commonsense, but the way Joan & co. used
>>> to explain these Romanization issues was that one shouldn’t
>>> try to guess the way a word sound, but Romanize based on the
>>> combination of letters. In any case “ai” also appears in
>>> names like “Vais” = Weiss.
>>>
>>> rachel
>>>
>>> *From:*Jasmin Nof [mailto:jnof at upenn.edu]
>>> *Sent:* Monday, October 21, 2013 1:21 PM
>>> *To:* heb-naco at lists.service.ohio-state.edu
>>> <mailto:heb-naco at lists.service.ohio-state.edu>; Rachel Simon
>>> *Subject:* Re: [Heb-NACO] romanization of קוקטייל
>>>
>>> No, the "rules" call for Ledi; see the romanization chart: a
>>> tsere preceding the yod is 'e'. Granted, ליידיdoesn't
>>> appears in ES, but the sound we're trying to approximate is
>>> that of a tsere. Romanizing it as 'ai' implies that it
>>> rhymes with "lie".
>>>
>>> On 10/21/2013 12:11 PM, Rachel Simon wrote:
>>>
>>> I just came across a similar case, this time with the
>>> problematic Romanization in the first word of the title,
>>> cataloged by LC:
>>>
>>> הליידי של העיר הלבנה = ha-Ledi shel ha-ʻir ha-levanah
>>>
>>> Don’t the “rules” call for “Laidi”?
>>>
>>> Rachel
>>>
>>> *From:*heb-naco-bounces+rsimon=princeton.edu at lists.service.ohio-state.edu
>>> <mailto:heb-naco-bounces+rsimon=princeton.edu at lists.service.ohio-state.edu>
>>> [mailto:heb-naco-bounces+rsimon=princeton.edu at lists.service.ohio-state.edu]
>>> *On Behalf Of *Manuel Frau-Cortes
>>> *Sent:* Monday, October 21, 2013 11:46 AM
>>> *To:* Hebrew Name Authority Funnel
>>> *Subject:* Re: [Heb-NACO] romanization of קוקטייל
>>>
>>> I do agree with Mr. Talbot. This is a good solution if
>>> we keep in mind the end user and discoverability.
>>>
>>> Rules are rules, but I kind of hate it when rules make
>>> impossible for people to find things in the catalog!
>>> Total “deramah” / דרמה.
>>>
>>> **
>>>
>>> *Neil M. Frau-Cortes*
>>>
>>> Hebraica Cataloger
>>>
>>> McKeldin Library
>>>
>>> University of Maryland
>>> College Park, MD 20742
>>> Phone (301) 405-9337 <tel:%28301%29%20405-9337>
>>>
>>> nfrau at umd.edu <http://nfrau@umd.edu>
>>>
>>> *From:*heb-naco-bounces at lists.service.ohio-state.edu
>>> <mailto:heb-naco-bounces at lists.service.ohio-state.edu>
>>> [mailto:heb-naco-bounces at lists.service.ohio-state.edu]
>>> *On Behalf Of *Robert M. TALBOTT
>>> *Sent:* Monday, October 21, 2013 11:34 AM
>>> *To:* Hebrew Name Authority Funnel
>>> *Subject:* Re: [Heb-NACO] romanization of קוקטייל
>>>
>>> Folks:
>>>
>>> The way I would habve approached the data
>>>
>>> 24510 [vernacular double yud form from tp]
>>>
>>> 24510 Drai matini kotail
>>>
>>> 2463 [vernacular single yud form from ESh
>>>
>>> 2463 Drai martini koktel
>>>
>>> The reason why this is causing so much trouble is that
>>> in our romanization scheme, double yud represents either
>>> "ai," the default form, or a XyX where the yud has a
>>> degesh (I honestly can't think of any instances where
>>> double yud represent a non-dageshed yud hauling a tsere
>>> or a segol, but I could be wrong). So, for my money the
>>> best way to treat would be to transcribe what's on the
>>> piece according to usual practice (koktail; add a [sic]
>>> if you're still using AACR2) and to add the ESh form as
>>> an add title.
>>>
>>> My opnion is my own, and I defer to Those Who Know.
>>>
>>> Bob
>>>
>>> On Mon, Oct 21, 2013 at 8:18 AM, Jasmin Nof
>>> <jnof at upenn.edu <mailto:jnof at upenn.edu>> wrote:
>>>
>>> So in other words, I ought to add a 24633 for קוקטיל?
>>>
>>> On 10/21/2013 8:14 AM, Elhanan Adler wrote:
>>>
>>> Fyi
>>>
>>> Standard Israeli practice today is to add 24633s for
>>> title in alternate ketiv since, for example the
>>> reader usually has no idea if the dictionary he is
>>> looking for is titled
>>>
>>> מלוןor מילון
>>>
>>> Elhanan
>>>
>>> Elhanan Adler
>>>
>>> Email: elhanana at savion.huji.ac.il
>>> <mailto:elhanana at savion.huji.ac.il>
>>>
>>> Mobile tel.: 972-54-6829657
>>>
>>> Tel. (home) 972-2-6515977
>>>
>>> Fax (home): 972-2-6517129
>>>
>>> *From:*heb-naco-bounces at lists.service.ohio-state.edu
>>> <mailto:heb-naco-bounces at lists.service.ohio-state.edu>
>>> [mailto:heb-naco-bounces at lists.service.ohio-state.edu]
>>> *On Behalf Of *Jasmin Nof
>>> *Sent:* Friday, October 18, 2013 10:54 PM
>>> *To:* Heidi G Lerner; Jasmin Nof
>>> *Cc:* Hebrew Name Authority Funnel
>>> *Subject:* Re: [Heb-NACO] romanization of קוקטייל
>>>
>>> ok, so i just fixed the 245 to koktel (with
>>> appropriate diacritics) and deleted the extraneous
>>> 246. thanks for your prompt response!
>>>
>>> On 10/18/2013 3:45 PM, Heidi G Lerner wrote:
>>>
>>> Oops,
>>> I read the e-mail too oquickly about the tsere.
>>> I was thinking that it appeared on the resource.
>>>
>>> No, to the best of my knowledge incorrect
>>> romanizations should not be as added in 246s.
>>> The LC-PCC PS for 2.3.6.3 offers guidelines and
>>> best practices for making variant titles for
>>> permutations related to the title proper. There
>>> is no discussion onrecording variant or
>>> incorrect transliterations (unless found
>>> somewhere on the resource). Maher discusses
>>> alternative romanizations in Hebraica Cataloging
>>> but only in regards to providing alternative
>>> romanizations as references to Hebraica names.
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
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>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> Bob Talbott
>>>
>>> Hebraica Cataloger
>>>
>>> UC Berkeley
>>>
>>> 250 Moffitt
>>>
>>> Berkeley, CA 94720
>>>
>>>
>>>
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>>>
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>>>
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>>>
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