<html>
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<meta content="text/html; charset=UTF-8" http-equiv="Content-Type">
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<body bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">But isn't the second entry there just
to show alternate spelling, not alternate vocalization? <br>
<br>
If I'm a patron, and I see דריי vocalized 'ai' and קוקטייל
vocalized 'ai', I would think the two are supposed to be
pronounced the same, i.e. rhyme. Isn't the whole point of
romanization to try to approximate pronunciation?<br>
<br>
On 10/21/2013 3:58 PM, Yossi Galron wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CAFvrzv5+Mt9y=uZnrwcus=DRVAPT1o+VBbsZEFzzCnzhHKiuNg@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">Jasmin,
<div>I just opened ES: If we have קוקטיל (with one Yod) we
should romanize it as Koktel, but if we have קוקטייל (with two
Yods) then it will be Koktail.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Yossi</div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br clear="all">
<div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div><br>
</div>
Joseph (Yossi) Galron-Goldschlaeger<br>
E-Mail: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:galron.1@osu.edu" target="_blank">galron.1@osu.edu</a>
or <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:jgalron@gmail.com" target="_blank">jgalron@gmail.com</a><br>
Tel.: (614) 292-3362, Fax: (614)292-1918<br>
Lexicon of Modern Hebrew Literature: <a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://go.osu.edu/hebrewlit"
target="_blank">http://go.osu.edu/hebrewlit</a><br>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Mon, Oct 21, 2013 at 3:51 PM, Jasmin
Nof <span dir="ltr"><<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:jnof@upenn.edu" target="_blank">jnof@upenn.edu</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
<div>Except that קוקטייל is vocalized in ES with a tsere
under the tet and a sheva under the one yod; the second
entry form is with two yodim. <br>
<div>
<div class="h5"> <br>
On 10/21/2013 3:31 PM, Yossi Galron wrote:<br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div class="h5">
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">I am agreeing with Rachel and Barry.
As far as I remember it was established that in
case of two Yudin we romanize it as "ai".
<div><br>
<div>I remember I asked about שייקספיר and it
was agreed that it will be Shaikspir and not
Shekspir.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>[I guess that in case of שיקספיר it will be
Shikspir - like ויס is Vis]</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Yossi</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br clear="all">
<div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div><br>
</div>
Joseph (Yossi) Galron-Goldschlaeger<br>
E-Mail: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:galron.1@osu.edu"
target="_blank">galron.1@osu.edu</a> or <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:jgalron@gmail.com"
target="_blank">jgalron@gmail.com</a><br>
Tel.: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="tel:%28614%29%20292-3362"
value="+16142923362" target="_blank">(614)
292-3362</a>, Fax: <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="tel:%28614%29292-1918"
value="+16142921918" target="_blank">(614)292-1918</a><br>
Lexicon of Modern Hebrew Literature: <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://go.osu.edu/hebrewlit"
target="_blank">http://go.osu.edu/hebrewlit</a><br>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Mon, Oct 21, 2013 at
1:45 PM, Jasmin Nof <span dir="ltr"><<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:jnof@upenn.edu" target="_blank">jnof@upenn.edu</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0
0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc
solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
<div>Well, there isn't much guess-work
involved in this case, is there? And yes,
'ai' for names like Weiss is appropriate
since we're approximating a patah. <br>
<br>
Ohh, times like these make me realize how
much we miss Joan... <span><span> :-) </span></span><br>
<div>
<div> <br>
On 10/21/2013 1:32 PM, Rachel Simon
wrote:<br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">I
don’t mind using commonsense,
but the way Joan & co. used
to explain these Romanization
issues was that one shouldn’t
try to guess the way a word
sound, but Romanize based on the
combination of letters. In any
case “ai” also appears in names
like “Vais” = Weiss.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">rachel</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<div>
<div
style="border:none;border-top:solid
#b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in
0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext">
Jasmin Nof [<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:jnof@upenn.edu"
target="_blank">mailto:jnof@upenn.edu</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, October
21, 2013 1:21 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:heb-naco@lists.service.ohio-state.edu"
target="_blank">heb-naco@lists.service.ohio-state.edu</a>;
Rachel Simon<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re:
[Heb-NACO] romanization of <span
dir="RTL" lang="HE">קוקטייל</span></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">No, the
"rules" call for Ledi; see the
romanization chart: a tsere
preceding the yod is 'e'.
Granted, <span dir="RTL"
lang="HE">ליידי</span><span
dir="LTR"></span><span
dir="LTR"></span> doesn't
appears in ES, but the sound
we're trying to approximate is
that of a tsere. Romanizing it
as 'ai' implies that it rhymes
with "lie".<br>
<br>
On 10/21/2013 12:11 PM, Rachel
Simon wrote:</p>
</div>
<blockquote
style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">I
just came across a similar
case, this time with the
problematic Romanization in
the first word of the title,
cataloged by LC: </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
dir="RTL"
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"
lang="HE">הליידי של העיר הלבנה</span><span
dir="LTR"></span><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><span
dir="LTR"></span> =
ha-Ledi shel ha-ʻir ha-levanah</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Don’t
the “rules” call for “Laidi”?</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Rachel</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<div>
<div
style="border:none;border-top:solid
#b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt
0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:heb-naco-bounces+rsimon=princeton.edu@lists.service.ohio-state.edu"
target="_blank">heb-naco-bounces+rsimon=princeton.edu@lists.service.ohio-state.edu</a>
[<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:heb-naco-bounces+rsimon=princeton.edu@lists.service.ohio-state.edu"
target="_blank">mailto:heb-naco-bounces+rsimon=princeton.edu@lists.service.ohio-state.edu</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Manuel
Frau-Cortes<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday,
October 21, 2013 11:46 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Hebrew Name
Authority Funnel<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re:
[Heb-NACO] romanization of
<span dir="RTL" lang="HE">קוקטייל</span></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">I
do agree with Mr. Talbot. This
is a good solution if we keep
in mind the end user and
discoverability. </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Rules
are rules, but I kind of hate
it when rules make impossible
for people to find things in
the catalog! Total “deramah” /
</span><span dir="RTL"
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"
lang="HE">דרמה</span><span
dir="LTR"></span><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"
lang="CA"><span dir="LTR"></span>.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b> </b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><b>Neil
M. Frau-Cortes</b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt">Hebraica
Cataloger</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt">McKeldin Library</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt">University
of Maryland<br>
College Park, MD 20742<br>
Phone <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="tel:%28301%29%20405-9337"
value="+13014059337"
target="_blank">(301)
405-9337</a></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt"><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://nfrau@umd.edu"
target="_blank">nfrau@umd.edu</a></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:heb-naco-bounces@lists.service.ohio-state.edu"
target="_blank">heb-naco-bounces@lists.service.ohio-state.edu</a>
[<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:heb-naco-bounces@lists.service.ohio-state.edu"
target="_blank">mailto:heb-naco-bounces@lists.service.ohio-state.edu</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Robert M.
TALBOTT<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, October
21, 2013 11:34 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Hebrew Name
Authority Funnel<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Heb-NACO]
romanization of <span
dir="RTL" lang="HE">קוקטייל</span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Folks:</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">The way I
would habve approached the
data</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">24510
[vernacular double yud form
from tp]</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">24510 Drai
matini kotail</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">2463
[vernacular single yud form
from ESh</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">2463 Drai
martini koktel</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">The reason
why this is causing so much
trouble is that in our
romanization scheme, double
yud represents either "ai,"
the default form, or a XyX
where the yud has a degesh (I
honestly can't think of any
instances where double yud
represent a non-dageshed yud
hauling a tsere or a segol,
but I could be wrong). So,
for my money the best way to
treat would be to transcribe
what's on the piece according
to usual practice (koktail;
add a [sic] if you're still
using AACR2) and to add the
ESh form as an add title.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">My opnion
is my own, and I defer to
Those Who Know.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Bob</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Mon, Oct
21, 2013 at 8:18 AM, Jasmin
Nof <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:jnof@upenn.edu"
target="_blank">jnof@upenn.edu</a>>
wrote:</p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">So in
other words, I ought to
add a 24633 for <span
dir="RTL" lang="HE">
קוקטיל</span><span
dir="LTR"></span><span
dir="LTR"></span>?<br>
<br>
On 10/21/2013 8:14 AM,
Elhanan Adler wrote:</p>
</div>
<blockquote
style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Fyi</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Standard
Israeli practice today
is to add 24633s for
title in alternate
ketiv since, for
example the reader
usually has no idea if
the dictionary he is
looking for is titled</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
dir="RTL"
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"
lang="HE">מלון</span><span
dir="RTL"
style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1f497d"
lang="HE"> </span><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">or
</span><span dir="RTL"
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"
lang="HE">מילון</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Elhanan</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Elhanan
Adler </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Email:
<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:elhanana@savion.huji.ac.il" target="_blank">elhanana@savion.huji.ac.il</a></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Mobile
tel.: 972-54-6829657</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Tel.
(home) 972-2-6515977</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Fax
(home):
972-2-6517129</span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<div>
<div
style="border:none;border-top:solid
#b5c4df
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt
0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">
<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:heb-naco-bounces@lists.service.ohio-state.edu"
target="_blank">heb-naco-bounces@lists.service.ohio-state.edu</a>
[<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:heb-naco-bounces@lists.service.ohio-state.edu"
target="_blank">mailto:heb-naco-bounces@lists.service.ohio-state.edu</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Jasmin
Nof<br>
<b>Sent:</b>
Friday, October
18, 2013 10:54 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Heidi G
Lerner; Jasmin Nof<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Hebrew
Name Authority
Funnel<br>
<b>Subject:</b>
Re: [Heb-NACO]
romanization of <span
dir="RTL"
lang="HE">קוקטייל</span></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">ok,
so i just fixed the
245 to koktel (with
appropriate
diacritics) and
deleted the extraneous
246. thanks for your
prompt response!<br>
<br>
On 10/18/2013 3:45 PM,
Heidi G Lerner wrote:</p>
</div>
<blockquote
style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">Oops, <br>
I read the
e-mail too
oquickly about
the tsere. I was
thinking that it
appeared on the
resource. </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">No, to the
best of my
knowledge
incorrect
romanizations
should not be as
added in 246s.
The LC-PCC PS
for 2.3.6.3
offers
guidelines and
best practices
for making
variant titles
for permutations
related to the
title proper.
There is no
discussion
onrecording
variant or
incorrect
transliterations
(unless found
somewhere on the
resource). Maher
discusses
alternative
romanizations in
Hebraica
Cataloging but
only in regards
to providing
alternative
romanizations as
references to
Hebraica names.</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""> </span></p>
</div>
<div class="MsoNormal"
style="text-align:center" align="center"><span
style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">
<hr align="center"
size="2"
width="100%"> </span></div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"> </p>
<pre>_______________________________________________</pre>
<pre>Heb-naco mailing list</pre>
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<pre><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="https://lists.service.ohio-state.edu/mailman/listinfo/heb-naco" target="_blank">https://lists.service.ohio-state.edu/mailman/listinfo/heb-naco</a></pre>
</blockquote>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
_______________________________________________<br>
Heb-naco mailing list<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:Heb-naco@lists.service.ohio-state.edu"
target="_blank">Heb-naco@lists.service.ohio-state.edu</a><br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://lists.service.ohio-state.edu/mailman/listinfo/heb-naco"
target="_blank">https://lists.service.ohio-state.edu/mailman/listinfo/heb-naco</a></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
<br clear="all">
<br>
-- </p>
<div>
<pre>Bob Talbott</pre>
<pre>Hebraica Cataloger</pre>
<pre>UC Berkeley</pre>
<pre>250 Moffitt</pre>
<pre>Berkeley, CA 94720</pre>
<pre> </pre>
<pre>We're happy as fish,</pre>
<pre>as gorgeous as geese,</pre>
<pre>and wonderfully clean in the morning.</pre>
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<pre>_______________________________________________
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href="https://lists.service.ohio-state.edu/mailman/listinfo/heb-naco"
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