[Heb-NACO] romanization of קוקטייל

[Jasmin Nof]

Well, there isn't much guess-work involved in this case, is there?  And 
yes, 'ai' for names like Weiss is appropriate since we're approximating 
a patah.

Ohh, times like these make me realize how much we miss Joan... :-)

On 10/21/2013 1:32 PM, Rachel Simon wrote:
>
> I don’t mind using commonsense, but the way Joan & co. used to explain 
> these Romanization issues was that one shouldn’t try to guess the way 
> a word sound, but Romanize based on the combination of letters. In any 
> case “ai” also appears in names like “Vais” = Weiss.
>
> rachel
>
> *From:*Jasmin Nof [mailto:jnof at upenn.edu]
> *Sent:* Monday, October 21, 2013 1:21 PM
> *To:* heb-naco at lists.service.ohio-state.edu; Rachel Simon
> *Subject:* Re: [Heb-NACO] romanization of קוקטייל
>
> No, the "rules" call for Ledi; see the romanization chart: a tsere 
> preceding the yod is 'e'. Granted, ליידיdoesn't appears in ES, but the 
> sound we're trying to approximate is that of a tsere.  Romanizing it 
> as 'ai' implies that it rhymes with "lie".
>
> On 10/21/2013 12:11 PM, Rachel Simon wrote:
>
>     I just came across a similar case, this time with the problematic
>     Romanization in the first word of the title, cataloged by LC:
>
>     הליידי של העיר הלבנה  =  ha-Ledi shel ha-ʻir ha-levanah
>
>     Don’t the “rules” call for “Laidi”?
>
>     Rachel
>
>     *From:*heb-naco-bounces+rsimon=princeton.edu at lists.service.ohio-state.edu
>     <mailto:heb-naco-bounces+rsimon=princeton.edu at lists.service.ohio-state.edu>
>     [mailto:heb-naco-bounces+rsimon=princeton.edu at lists.service.ohio-state.edu]
>     *On Behalf Of *Manuel Frau-Cortes
>     *Sent:* Monday, October 21, 2013 11:46 AM
>     *To:* Hebrew Name Authority Funnel
>     *Subject:* Re: [Heb-NACO] romanization of קוקטייל
>
>     I do agree with Mr. Talbot. This is a good solution if we keep in
>     mind the end user and discoverability.
>
>     Rules are rules, but I kind of hate it when rules make impossible
>     for people to find things in the catalog! Total “deramah” / דרמה.
>
>     **
>
>     *Neil M. Frau-Cortes*
>
>     Hebraica Cataloger
>
>     McKeldin Library
>
>     University of Maryland
>     College Park, MD 20742
>     Phone (301) 405-9337
>
>     nfrau at umd.edu
>
>     *From:*heb-naco-bounces at lists.service.ohio-state.edu
>     <mailto:heb-naco-bounces at lists.service.ohio-state.edu>
>     [mailto:heb-naco-bounces at lists.service.ohio-state.edu] *On Behalf
>     Of *Robert M. TALBOTT
>     *Sent:* Monday, October 21, 2013 11:34 AM
>     *To:* Hebrew Name Authority Funnel
>     *Subject:* Re: [Heb-NACO] romanization of קוקטייל
>
>     Folks:
>
>     The way I would habve approached the data
>
>     24510 [vernacular double yud form from tp]
>
>     24510 Drai matini kotail
>
>     2463  [vernacular single yud form from ESh
>
>     2463  Drai martini koktel
>
>     The reason why this is causing so much trouble is that in our
>     romanization scheme, double yud represents either "ai," the
>     default form, or a XyX where the yud has a degesh (I honestly
>     can't think of any instances where double yud represent a
>     non-dageshed yud hauling a tsere or a segol, but I could be
>     wrong).  So, for my money the best way to treat would be to
>     transcribe what's on the piece according to usual practice
>     (koktail; add a [sic] if you're still using AACR2) and to add the
>     ESh form as an add title.
>
>     My opnion is my own, and I defer to Those Who Know.
>
>     Bob
>
>     On Mon, Oct 21, 2013 at 8:18 AM, Jasmin Nof <jnof at upenn.edu
>     <mailto:jnof at upenn.edu>> wrote:
>
>     So in other words, I ought to add a 24633 for קוקטיל?
>
>     On 10/21/2013 8:14 AM, Elhanan Adler wrote:
>
>         Fyi
>
>         Standard Israeli practice today is to add 24633s for title in
>         alternate ketiv since, for example the reader usually has no
>         idea if the dictionary he is looking for is titled
>
>         מלוןor מילון
>
>         Elhanan
>
>         Elhanan Adler
>
>         Email: elhanana at savion.huji.ac.il
>         <mailto:elhanana at savion.huji.ac.il>
>
>         Mobile tel.: 972-54-6829657
>
>         Tel. (home) 972-2-6515977
>
>         Fax (home): 972-2-6517129
>
>         *From:*heb-naco-bounces at lists.service.ohio-state.edu
>         <mailto:heb-naco-bounces at lists.service.ohio-state.edu>
>         [mailto:heb-naco-bounces at lists.service.ohio-state.edu] *On
>         Behalf Of *Jasmin Nof
>         *Sent:* Friday, October 18, 2013 10:54 PM
>         *To:* Heidi G Lerner; Jasmin Nof
>         *Cc:* Hebrew Name Authority Funnel
>         *Subject:* Re: [Heb-NACO] romanization of קוקטייל
>
>         ok, so i just fixed the 245 to koktel (with appropriate
>         diacritics) and deleted the extraneous 246.  thanks for your
>         prompt response!
>
>         On 10/18/2013 3:45 PM, Heidi G Lerner wrote:
>
>             Oops,
>             I read the e-mail too oquickly about the tsere. I was
>             thinking that it appeared on the resource.
>
>             No, to the best of my knowledge incorrect romanizations
>             should not be as added in 246s. The LC-PCC PS for 2.3.6.3
>             offers guidelines and best practices for making variant
>             titles for permutations related to the title proper. There
>             is no discussion onrecording variant or incorrect
>             transliterations (unless found somewhere on the resource).
>             Maher discusses alternative romanizations in Hebraica
>             Cataloging but only in regards to providing alternative
>             romanizations as references to Hebraica names.
>
>             ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
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>
>
>     -- 
>
>     Bob Talbott
>
>     Hebraica Cataloger
>
>     UC Berkeley
>
>     250 Moffitt
>
>     Berkeley, CA 94720
>
>       
>
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