[Heb-NACO] romanization of קוקטייל

[Yossi Galron]

I am agreeing with Rachel and Barry. As far as I remember it was
established that in case of two Yudin we romanize it as "ai".

I remember I asked about שייקספיר and it was agreed that it will be
Shaikspir and not Shekspir.

[I guess that in case of שיקספיר it will be Shikspir - like ויס is Vis]

Yossi




Joseph (Yossi) Galron-Goldschlaeger
E-Mail: galron.1 at osu.edu  or jgalron at gmail.com
Tel.: (614) 292-3362,  Fax: (614)292-1918
Lexicon of Modern Hebrew Literature: http://go.osu.edu/hebrewlit


On Mon, Oct 21, 2013 at 1:45 PM, Jasmin Nof <jnof at upenn.edu> wrote:

>  Well, there isn't much guess-work involved in this case, is there?  And
> yes, 'ai' for names like Weiss is appropriate since we're approximating a
> patah.
>
> Ohh, times like these make me realize how much we miss Joan... :-)
>
> On 10/21/2013 1:32 PM, Rachel Simon wrote:
>
>  I don’t mind using commonsense, but the way Joan & co. used to explain
> these Romanization issues was that one shouldn’t try to guess the way a
> word sound, but Romanize based on the combination of letters. In any case
> “ai” also appears in names like “Vais” = Weiss.****
>
> ** **
>
> rachel****
>
> ** **
>
> *From:* Jasmin Nof [mailto:jnof at upenn.edu <jnof at upenn.edu>]
> *Sent:* Monday, October 21, 2013 1:21 PM
> *To:* heb-naco at lists.service.ohio-state.edu; Rachel Simon
> *Subject:* Re: [Heb-NACO] romanization of קוקטייל****
>
> ** **
>
> No, the "rules" call for Ledi; see the romanization chart: a tsere
> preceding the yod is 'e'.  Granted, ליידי doesn't appears in ES, but the
> sound we're trying to approximate is that of a tsere.  Romanizing it as
> 'ai' implies that it rhymes with "lie".
>
> On 10/21/2013 12:11 PM, Rachel Simon wrote:****
>
> I just came across a similar case, this time with the problematic
> Romanization in the first word of the title, cataloged by LC: ****
>
>  ****
>
> הליידי של העיר הלבנה  =  ha-Ledi shel ha-ʻir ha-levanah****
>
>  ****
>
> Don’t the “rules” call for “Laidi”?****
>
>  ****
>
> Rachel****
>
>  ****
>
> *From:* heb-naco-bounces+rsimon=princeton.edu at lists.service.ohio-state.edu[
> mailto:heb-naco-bounces+rsimon=princeton.edu at lists.service.ohio-state.edu<heb-naco-bounces+rsimon=princeton.edu at lists.service.ohio-state.edu>]
> *On Behalf Of *Manuel Frau-Cortes
> *Sent:* Monday, October 21, 2013 11:46 AM
> *To:* Hebrew Name Authority Funnel
> *Subject:* Re: [Heb-NACO] romanization of קוקטייל****
>
>  ****
>
> I do agree with Mr. Talbot. This is a good solution if we keep in mind the
> end user and discoverability. ****
>
>  ****
>
> Rules are rules, but I kind of hate it when rules make impossible for
> people to find things in the catalog! Total “deramah” / דרמה.****
>
>  ****
>
> * *****
>
> *Neil M. Frau-Cortes*****
>
> Hebraica Cataloger****
>
> McKeldin Library****
>
> University of Maryland
> College Park, MD 20742
> Phone (301) 405-9337****
>
> nfrau at umd.edu****
>
>  ****
>
> *From:* heb-naco-bounces at lists.service.ohio-state.edu [
> mailto:heb-naco-bounces at lists.service.ohio-state.edu<heb-naco-bounces at lists.service.ohio-state.edu>]
> *On Behalf Of *Robert M. TALBOTT
> *Sent:* Monday, October 21, 2013 11:34 AM
> *To:* Hebrew Name Authority Funnel
> *Subject:* Re: [Heb-NACO] romanization of קוקטייל****
>
>  ****
>
> Folks:****
>
>  ****
>
> The way I would habve approached the data****
>
> 24510 [vernacular double yud form from tp]****
>
> 24510 Drai matini kotail****
>
> 2463  [vernacular single yud form from ESh****
>
> 2463  Drai martini koktel****
>
>  ****
>
> The reason why this is causing so much trouble is that in our romanization
> scheme, double yud represents either "ai," the default form, or a XyX where
> the yud has a degesh (I honestly can't think of any instances where double
> yud represent a non-dageshed yud hauling a tsere or a segol, but I could be
> wrong).  So, for my money the best way to treat would be to transcribe
> what's on the piece according to usual practice (koktail; add a [sic] if
> you're still using AACR2) and to add the ESh form as an add title.****
>
>  ****
>
> My opnion is my own, and I defer to Those Who Know.****
>
>  ****
>
> Bob****
>
> On Mon, Oct 21, 2013 at 8:18 AM, Jasmin Nof <jnof at upenn.edu> wrote:****
>
> So in other words, I ought to add a 24633 for קוקטיל?
>
> On 10/21/2013 8:14 AM, Elhanan Adler wrote:****
>
>  Fyi****
>
>  ****
>
> Standard Israeli practice today is to add 24633s for title in alternate
> ketiv since, for example the reader usually has no idea if the dictionary
> he is looking for is titled****
>
> מלון or מילון****
>
>  ****
>
>  ****
>
> Elhanan****
>
>  ****
>
> Elhanan Adler ****
>
> Email: elhanana at savion.huji.ac.il****
>
> Mobile tel.: 972-54-6829657****
>
> Tel. (home) 972-2-6515977****
>
> Fax (home): 972-2-6517129****
>
>  ****
>
> *From:* heb-naco-bounces at lists.service.ohio-state.edu [
> mailto:heb-naco-bounces at lists.service.ohio-state.edu<heb-naco-bounces at lists.service.ohio-state.edu>]
> *On Behalf Of *Jasmin Nof
> *Sent:* Friday, October 18, 2013 10:54 PM
> *To:* Heidi G Lerner; Jasmin Nof
> *Cc:* Hebrew Name Authority Funnel
> *Subject:* Re: [Heb-NACO] romanization of קוקטייל****
>
>  ****
>
> ok, so i just fixed the 245 to koktel (with appropriate diacritics) and
> deleted the extraneous 246.  thanks for your prompt response!
>
> On 10/18/2013 3:45 PM, Heidi G Lerner wrote:****
>
>  Oops,
> I read the e-mail too oquickly about the tsere. I was thinking that it
> appeared on the resource. ****
>
>  ****
>
> No, to the best of my knowledge incorrect romanizations should not be as
> added in 246s. The LC-PCC PS for 2.3.6.3 offers guidelines and best
> practices for making variant titles for permutations related to the title
> proper. There is no discussion onrecording variant or incorrect
> transliterations (unless found somewhere on the resource). Maher discusses
> alternative romanizations in Hebraica Cataloging but only in regards to
> providing alternative romanizations as references to Hebraica names.****
>
>  ****
>
>  ****
>  ------------------------------
>
>  ****
>
>  ****
>
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> -- ****
>
> Bob Talbott****
>
> Hebraica Cataloger****
>
> UC Berkeley****
>
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>
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