<div dir="ltr">I am agreeing with Rachel and Barry. As far as I remember it was established that in case of two Yudin we romanize it as "ai".<div><br><div>I remember I asked about שייקספיר and it was agreed that it will be Shaikspir and not Shekspir.</div>
<div><br></div><div>[I guess that in case of שיקספיר it will be Shikspir - like ויס is Vis]</div><div><br></div><div>Yossi</div><div><br></div><div><br></div></div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br clear="all"><div><div dir="ltr">
<div><br></div>Joseph (Yossi) Galron-Goldschlaeger<br>E-Mail: <a href="mailto:galron.1@osu.edu" target="_blank">galron.1@osu.edu</a> or <a href="mailto:jgalron@gmail.com" target="_blank">jgalron@gmail.com</a><br>Tel.: (614) 292-3362, Fax: (614)292-1918<br>
Lexicon of Modern Hebrew Literature: <a href="http://go.osu.edu/hebrewlit" target="_blank">http://go.osu.edu/hebrewlit</a><br></div></div>
<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Mon, Oct 21, 2013 at 1:45 PM, Jasmin Nof <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:jnof@upenn.edu" target="_blank">jnof@upenn.edu</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
<div>Well, there isn't much guess-work
involved in this case, is there? And yes, 'ai' for names like
Weiss is appropriate since we're approximating a patah. <br>
<br>
Ohh, times like these make me realize how much we miss Joan... <span><span> :-) </span></span><br><div><div class="h5">
<br>
On 10/21/2013 1:32 PM, Rachel Simon wrote:<br>
</div></div></div><div><div class="h5">
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">I
don’t mind using commonsense, but the way Joan & co.
used to explain these Romanization issues was that one
shouldn’t try to guess the way a word sound, but Romanize
based on the combination of letters. In any case “ai” also
appears in names like “Vais” = Weiss.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">rachel<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext">
Jasmin Nof [<a href="mailto:jnof@upenn.edu" target="_blank">mailto:jnof@upenn.edu</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, October 21, 2013 1:21 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:heb-naco@lists.service.ohio-state.edu" target="_blank">heb-naco@lists.service.ohio-state.edu</a>; Rachel
Simon<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Heb-NACO] romanization of <span dir="RTL" lang="HE">קוקטייל</span><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">No, the "rules" call for Ledi; see the
romanization chart: a tsere preceding the yod is 'e'.
Granted,
<span dir="RTL" lang="HE">ליידי</span><span dir="LTR"></span><span dir="LTR"></span> doesn't appears in ES, but the sound
we're trying to approximate is that of a tsere. Romanizing
it as 'ai' implies that it rhymes with "lie".<br>
<br>
On 10/21/2013 12:11 PM, Rachel Simon wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">I
just came across a similar case, this time with the
problematic Romanization in the first word of the title,
cataloged by LC:
</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span dir="RTL" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1f497d" lang="HE">הליידי של העיר הלבנה</span><span dir="LTR"></span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"><span dir="LTR"></span> = ha-Ledi shel ha-ʻir ha-levanah</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Don’t
the “rules” call for “Laidi”?</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Rachel</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">
<a href="mailto:heb-naco-bounces+rsimon=princeton.edu@lists.service.ohio-state.edu" target="_blank">heb-naco-bounces+rsimon=princeton.edu@lists.service.ohio-state.edu</a>
[<a href="mailto:heb-naco-bounces+rsimon=princeton.edu@lists.service.ohio-state.edu" target="_blank">mailto:heb-naco-bounces+rsimon=princeton.edu@lists.service.ohio-state.edu</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Manuel Frau-Cortes<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, October 21, 2013 11:46 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Hebrew Name Authority Funnel<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Heb-NACO] romanization of <span dir="RTL" lang="HE">קוקטייל</span></span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">I
do agree with Mr. Talbot. This is a good solution if we
keep in mind the end user and discoverability.
</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Rules
are rules, but I kind of hate it when rules make
impossible for people to find things in the catalog! Total
“deramah” /
</span><span dir="RTL" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1f497d" lang="HE">דרמה</span><span dir="LTR"></span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d" lang="CA"><span dir="LTR"></span>.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b> </b><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><b>Neil M.
Frau-Cortes</b><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">Hebraica
Cataloger</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">McKeldin Library</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">University
of Maryland<br>
College Park, MD 20742<br>
Phone <a href="tel:%28301%29%20405-9337" value="+13014059337" target="_blank">(301) 405-9337</a></span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><a href="http://nfrau@umd.edu" target="_blank">nfrau@umd.edu</a></span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">
<a href="mailto:heb-naco-bounces@lists.service.ohio-state.edu" target="_blank">heb-naco-bounces@lists.service.ohio-state.edu</a>
[<a href="mailto:heb-naco-bounces@lists.service.ohio-state.edu" target="_blank">mailto:heb-naco-bounces@lists.service.ohio-state.edu</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Robert M. TALBOTT<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, October 21, 2013 11:34 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Hebrew Name Authority Funnel<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Heb-NACO] romanization of <span dir="RTL" lang="HE">קוקטייל</span></span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Folks:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">The way I would habve approached the
data<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">24510 [vernacular double yud form from
tp]<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">24510 Drai matini kotail<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">2463 [vernacular single yud form from
ESh<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">2463 Drai martini koktel<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">The reason why this is causing so much
trouble is that in our romanization scheme, double yud
represents either "ai," the default form, or a XyX where
the yud has a degesh (I honestly can't think of any
instances where double yud represent a non-dageshed yud
hauling a tsere or a segol, but I could be wrong). So,
for my money the best way to treat would be to transcribe
what's on the piece according to usual practice (koktail;
add a [sic] if you're still using AACR2) and to add the
ESh form as an add title.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">My opnion is my own, and I defer to
Those Who Know.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Bob<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Mon, Oct 21, 2013 at 8:18 AM, Jasmin
Nof <<a href="mailto:jnof@upenn.edu" target="_blank">jnof@upenn.edu</a>>
wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">So in other words, I ought to add a
24633 for <span dir="RTL" lang="HE">
קוקטיל</span><span dir="LTR"></span><span dir="LTR"></span>?<br>
<br>
On 10/21/2013 8:14 AM, Elhanan Adler wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Fyi</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Standard
Israeli practice today is to add 24633s for title
in alternate ketiv since, for example the reader
usually has no idea if the dictionary he is
looking for is titled</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span dir="RTL" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1f497d" lang="HE">מלון</span><span dir="RTL" style="font-size:11.0pt;color:#1f497d" lang="HE">
</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">or
</span><span dir="RTL" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1f497d" lang="HE">מילון</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Elhanan</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Elhanan
Adler
</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Email:
<a href="mailto:elhanana@savion.huji.ac.il" target="_blank">elhanana@savion.huji.ac.il</a></span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Mobile
tel.: 972-54-6829657</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Tel.
(home) 972-2-6515977</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:#1f497d">Fax
(home): 972-2-6517129</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1f497d"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"">
<a href="mailto:heb-naco-bounces@lists.service.ohio-state.edu" target="_blank">heb-naco-bounces@lists.service.ohio-state.edu</a>
[<a href="mailto:heb-naco-bounces@lists.service.ohio-state.edu" target="_blank">mailto:heb-naco-bounces@lists.service.ohio-state.edu</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Jasmin Nof<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, October 18, 2013 10:54 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Heidi G Lerner; Jasmin Nof<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Hebrew Name Authority Funnel<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Heb-NACO] romanization of
<span dir="RTL" lang="HE">קוקטייל</span></span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">ok,
so i just fixed the 245 to koktel (with
appropriate diacritics) and deleted the extraneous
246. thanks for your prompt response!<br>
<br>
On 10/18/2013 3:45 PM, Heidi G Lerner wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">Oops,
<br>
I read the e-mail too oquickly about the
tsere. I was thinking that it appeared on
the resource.
</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">No, to the
best of my knowledge incorrect romanizations
should not be as added in 246s. The LC-PCC
PS for 2.3.6.3 offers guidelines and best
practices for making variant titles for
permutations related to the title proper.
There is no discussion onrecording variant
or incorrect transliterations (unless found
somewhere on the resource). Maher discusses
alternative romanizations in Hebraica
Cataloging but only in regards to providing
alternative romanizations as references to
Hebraica names.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div class="MsoNormal" style="text-align:center" align="center"><span style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"">
<hr align="center" size="2" width="100%">
</span></div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"> <u></u><u></u></p>
<pre>_______________________________________________<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>Heb-naco mailing list<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre><a href="mailto:Heb-naco@lists.service.ohio-state.edu" target="_blank">Heb-naco@lists.service.ohio-state.edu</a><u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre><a href="https://lists.service.ohio-state.edu/mailman/listinfo/heb-naco" target="_blank">https://lists.service.ohio-state.edu/mailman/listinfo/heb-naco</a><u></u><u></u></pre>
</blockquote>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
_______________________________________________<br>
Heb-naco mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:Heb-naco@lists.service.ohio-state.edu" target="_blank">Heb-naco@lists.service.ohio-state.edu</a><br>
<a href="https://lists.service.ohio-state.edu/mailman/listinfo/heb-naco" target="_blank">https://lists.service.ohio-state.edu/mailman/listinfo/heb-naco</a><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
<br clear="all">
<br>
-- <u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<pre>Bob Talbott<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>Hebraica Cataloger<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>UC Berkeley<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>250 Moffitt<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>Berkeley, CA 94720<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre> <u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>We're happy as fish,<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>as gorgeous as geese,<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>and wonderfully clean in the morning.<u></u><u></u></pre>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><br>
<br>
<br>
<u></u><u></u></p>
<pre>_______________________________________________<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre>Heb-naco mailing list<u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre><a href="mailto:Heb-naco@lists.service.ohio-state.edu" target="_blank">Heb-naco@lists.service.ohio-state.edu</a><u></u><u></u></pre>
<pre><a href="https://lists.service.ohio-state.edu/mailman/listinfo/heb-naco" target="_blank">https://lists.service.ohio-state.edu/mailman/listinfo/heb-naco</a><u></u><u></u></pre>
</blockquote>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
</div></div></div>
<br>_______________________________________________<br>
Heb-naco mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:Heb-naco@lists.service.ohio-state.edu">Heb-naco@lists.service.ohio-state.edu</a><br>
<a href="https://lists.service.ohio-state.edu/mailman/listinfo/heb-naco" target="_blank">https://lists.service.ohio-state.edu/mailman/listinfo/heb-naco</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div><br></div>