[Vwoolf] staging female author suicides

Wed Jun 19 22:30:54 EDT 2013

I apologize in advance for repeating myself here, but, since this
discussion is still ongoing, I thought I would add my own opinion. I've not
seen the piece in print, but from what others have described, it sounds
like there is pretty much no information given on the authors being
depicted. To me, this is problematic because the piece makes no attempt to
portray the lives of the people whose 'bodies' it makes use of. There is no
sense of what these women achieved in their lives or their works. Nor is
there any sense of the intense struggles with mental illness that most, if
not all, of these women underwent. Of course, the intent of the Vice piece
is not (I presume) to promote the works or lives of the women it portrays,
so perhaps this criticism is moot. It is, after all, unfair to criticize a
piece of art for failing to accomplish something it does not set out to do.
But, as a 'Woolfian' (or, at least, a fan of Woolf as an author and
person), this piece just doesn't do anything for me, even on a good day.
Probably because, to me, the piece isn't really about Woolf, or about any
of the authors it portrays; it's about suicide. Also, as a fan of Woolf's,
I cannot help feeling irked that the Vice piece makes use of such a charged
aspect of Woolf's life without even trying to be faithful in portraying
Woolf as a person or writer.

I have absolutely no background in art or fashion, so I really cannot
comment on the role of suicide in either of those fields or the idea of
'suicide porn' or 'snuff'/'genocide art'. I have enjoyed hearing about
others' takes on women, suicide and art, but my reaction to this piece is
strictly as a student of literature and Woolf.

On Wed, Jun 19, 2013 at 9:45 PM, Gregory Jordan Dekter <jdekter at gmail.com>wrote:

> To all: I continuously reiterated the nature of these photos as "art"
> because a leading criticism originally was that they were simply
> advertisements to sell fashion. After examining them, I can tell you that
> they are decidedly not. Within that, a critical discussion is great. How
> could I oppose any criticism, or think these photos above it?
>
> Anne: that's very funny. I had not heard the term "mansplaining" before.
> Thanks for the joke, which I assume it has to be.
>
> Greg
>
>
> On 19 June 2013 20:54, ANNE Fernald [Staff/Faculty [A&S]] <
> fernald at fordham.edu> wrote:
>
>> Greg,
>>
>> With all due respect, the vwoolf listserv may not be the best forum for
>> mansplaining,
>>
>> Anne
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Jun 19, 2013 at 4:12 PM, Gregory Jordan Dekter <jdekter at gmail.com
>> > wrote:
>>
>>> Brenda,
>>>
>>> I agree with you that discussion of Woolf's suicide is excessive, and
>>> the fact that it can overshadow her literary output in the minds of some is
>>> troubling. It is an unfortunate phenomenon, as you know, not at all
>>> exclusive to Woolf. For whatever reason, suicide itself (and often not the
>>> illness that drives a person to it) is a topic of great interest in
>>> society, and even more so when the subject is well known. That is not the
>>> position from which I defend this photo spread. There is no doubt the
>>> spread is cliche. I do not think it is particularly good art--but it *is
>>> * art.
>>>
>>>> (Were there captions running under Marlon Brando in *Apocalypse Now*informing viewers who made his clothing?  Do we see that
>>>> *anywhere* except when the clothing is being publicized as fashion?
>>>
>>> Yes, we do. *Apocalypse Now *was precisely my example of the contrary.
>>> It carried no credits at all. Not actors, writer, director, or the author
>>> that influenced it had their names displayed on screen at any time. Just
>>> about every other contemporary film we watch, however, always carries a
>>> credit to the costume designer, right along side the actors, writer,
>>> director, etc. For the purpose of a magazine we call it a fashion designer.
>>> In film we call it a costume designer. It means the same thing. The
>>> costumes in these photos came from somewhere, and crediting the source they
>>> came from is not tantamount to direct advertising.
>>>
>>>> Have you ever seen someone after they’ve committed suicide?  It isn’t
>>>> pretty.  They’re not nicely arranged on the pavement in fashionable
>>>> clothing unmarred by blood or dirt, as if they’d suddenly decided to lay
>>>> down gently and take a nap.
>>>
>>> Generally, no. Realistically, no. But art is often about shifting
>>> perception away from the real. Do you remember that photograph,
>>> published in Life magazine but made popular by Andy Warhol in the work
>>> "Suicide (Fallen Body)"? It depicts the suicide of an otherwise unknown
>>> woman. The Life magazine caption read: “At the bottom of the Empire
>>> State Building the body of Evelyn McHale reposes calmly in grotesque bier,
>>> her falling body punched into the top of a car.” The photo was apparently
>>> called "the most beautiful suicide". Here is some information about it:
>>> http://iconicphotos.wordpress.com/2010/07/16/the-empire-state-of-leap/There is more that could be said on this. Staged vs found photographs, for
>>> one. But that is not my point. Merely, it is not the duty of art to express
>>> reality.
>>>
>>>> It also implies that intellectual gifts and artistic talents in women
>>>> somehow lead to suicide,
>>>
>>> Any group of images by an artist usually has some cohesive idea behind
>>> it. Depicted here are the images of women who did, or attempted to, kill
>>> themselves. Is it unfair to group images by theme, or do you assert that
>>> suicide is not a valid theme in art? In any case, I do not agree with your
>>> reading of the images here.
>>>
>>>> which has the obvious effect of discouraging women from pursuing their
>>>> own gifts and talents.  Further, it encourages people who suffer from
>>>> psychological problems accompanied by thoughts of suicide to understand
>>>> themselves as potential geniuses rather than to understand themselves as
>>>> needing professional help.
>>>
>>> Again you have made an assertion that I see no evidence for.
>>>
>>> Greg
>>>
>>> On 19 June 2013 14:56, Brenda S. Helt <helt0010 at umn.edu> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Greg, I think a lot of those of us who teach, study, and write about
>>>> Woolf’s work are “bothered by” the fact that Woolf’s suicide is so often
>>>> cited and capitalized upon.  In fact, many have written about this
>>>> unfortunate phenomenon.  I saw that exhibit at the NYPL as well, and I was
>>>> definitely bothered by the fact that the curators found it necessary to
>>>> link the walking stick to her suicide.  Not *surprised*, since it’s
>>>> such a common gambit, but definitely bothered by.  It’s a *library*;
>>>> how about a note mentioning the long walks on the Sussex downs she’d take
>>>> with this stick while conceptualizing a novel?  The result is that many
>>>> students come into our classes knowing only that one fact about Woolf, just
>>>> as they know that one detail about Plath.  And yes, many of us are also
>>>> bothered by the opening of *The Hours*, which capitalizes on Woolf’s
>>>> suicide and aetheticizes it.  I’ve seen the VICE spread, and it certainly
>>>> was a (misguided, at the least) attempt to market fashion.  (Were there
>>>> captions running under Marlon Brando in *Apocalypse Now* informing
>>>> viewers who made his clothing?  Do we see that *anywhere* except when
>>>> the clothing is being publicized as fashion?  This fashion spread--as
>>>> somebody on the list already said, I believe--was suicide porn.)****
>>>>
>>>> ** **
>>>>
>>>> Have you ever seen someone after they’ve committed suicide?  It isn’t
>>>> pretty.  They’re not nicely arranged on the pavement in fashionable
>>>> clothing unmarred by blood or dirt, as if they’d suddenly decided to lay
>>>> down gently and take a nap.  Woolf was nearly unrecognizable after several
>>>> days under water.  The VICE spread fetishizes and aestheticizes the suicide
>>>> of female intellectuals.  It also implies that intellectual gifts and
>>>> artistic talents in women somehow lead to suicide, which has the obvious
>>>> effect of discouraging women from pursuing their own gifts and talents.
>>>>  Further, it encourages people who suffer from psychological problems
>>>> accompanied by thoughts of suicide to understand themselves as potential
>>>> geniuses rather than to understand themselves as needing professional
>>>> help.  There is no way to recuperate any of that.****
>>>>
>>>> ** **
>>>>
>>>> Brenda Helt****
>>>>
>>>> ** **
>>>>
>>>> *From:* vwoolf-bounces at lists.service.ohio-state.edu [mailto:
>>>> vwoolf-bounces at lists.service.ohio-state.edu] *On Behalf Of *Gregory
>>>> Jordan Dekter
>>>> *Sent:* Wednesday, June 19, 2013 11:23 AM
>>>> *To:* vwoolf at lists.service.ohio-state.edu
>>>>
>>>> *Subject:* Re: [Vwoolf] staging female author suicides****
>>>>
>>>> ** **
>>>>
>>>> Perhaps some of you were able to see the photographs on the VICE
>>>> website before they were taken down. I had only been able to find a few out
>>>> of context (without captions), and so reserved my response until I could
>>>> get a copy of the print edition, which I have now done. I think I am
>>>> somewhat informed now to discuss it. ****
>>>>
>>>> Purely aesthetically, I would like to say that these are beautifully
>>>> arranged and photographed images. They are dramatic, and evocative. They do
>>>> not seem to me exploitative, or at least not in a way that is inconsistent
>>>> with any other contemporary art. ****
>>>>
>>>> Most importantly they are depictions of tragic events, with any
>>>> narrative enforced only by the small caption stating the subject and a
>>>> brief line about their death. For example, for Woolf the caption reads:
>>>> ****
>>>>
>>>> VIRGINIA WOOLF, 59
>>>> *Born: January 25, 1882
>>>> (London, England)
>>>> Died: March 28, 1941
>>>> (Lewes, England)
>>>> Cause of death: drowning*****
>>>>
>>>> Kimberly, you had said the spread is being used to sell fashion. This
>>>> is really not the case. Although this series is indexed in the magazine
>>>> under "Fashion", I think that is an incredibly subjective term, and the
>>>> general intention of the magazine needs to be considered. This is not a
>>>> commercial fashion magazine. The entire tone of VICE is artistic and/or
>>>> experimental (I don't know of many other free national publications that
>>>> devote entire issues to contemporary fiction). It should not be considered
>>>> along side Cosmo and the like. ****
>>>>
>>>> It seems the primary reason this spread bothers most of you is that the
>>>> clothing designers are specifically credited for the examples of their work
>>>> that appear in each photograph. Let me clear up that these credits are
>>>> minimal, and provide no information on how or where to buy this clothing.
>>>> It is no more an advert than any other credit is an advert of the
>>>> contributor. Clothing design is a valid medium of artistic expression, and
>>>> it seems to me these designers were credited as artists, just as the
>>>> models, stylist, and photographer were. There is nothing explicitly for
>>>> sale in these photographs. ****
>>>>
>>>> Let me put it another way. The clothing we wear, often overlooked, is
>>>> an essential part of our existence. Every shirt, dress, or pair of pants
>>>> you put on was designed and made by someone. Should a designer of something
>>>> not rightfully be credited for their work if the thing they designed is for
>>>> sale? Or do you all consider "fashion" too flippant a form to be taken
>>>> seriously? Or, conversely, should no one involved in a particularly heavy
>>>> subject be credited at the risk of distracting from, or devaluing their own
>>>> work? (The film "Apocalypse Now" was originally shown without opening or
>>>> closing credits for this reason--but it is a rare instance).****
>>>>
>>>> If the distaste is that the images use the theme of suicide as a point
>>>> of interest, I am reminded of a recent experience I had. Last year I
>>>> attended an exhibit at the New York Public Library that included some Woolf
>>>> artifacts. One item was a diary. Another was her walking stick.
>>>> Interestingly, the exhibit made particular note that the walking stick
>>>> displayed was the one Woolf had with her when she walked into the River
>>>> Ouse the day she killed herself. I wonder what additional enticement the
>>>> curator felt describing the item by its final use would create. Was the
>>>> simple fact that the walking stick was owned by Virginia Woolf not enough?
>>>> Was some additional allure manifest in its passive connection to her
>>>> suicide? I don't know the answer to this, but I also do not remember anyone
>>>> being bothered by it. ****
>>>>
>>>> Greg****
>>>>
>>>> ** **
>>>>
>>>> On 18 June 2013 19:55, Jean Mallinson <annaj at telus.net> wrote:****
>>>>
>>>> I'm glad it was taken down but the apology  shows a failure to grasp
>>>> jut how deeply offensive the whole scheme was. It is a kind of suicide porn
>>>> and suggests a very depraved taste. It made me feel sad and angry.
>>>> Jean ****
>>>>
>>>> On 6/18/2013 1:24 PM, Melanie White wrote:****
>>>>
>>>> Apart from VW, the characters in The Hours were fictional, and VW’s
>>>> death was decades ago, whereas Iris Chang’s family and loved ones probably
>>>> are still very much processing their grief over her suicide. The image of
>>>> her was breathtakingly insensitive and offensive to me for that reason.
>>>> ****
>>>>
>>>>  ****
>>>>
>>>> *From:* vwoolf-bounces at lists.service.ohio-state.edu [
>>>> mailto:vwoolf-bounces at lists.service.ohio-state.edu<vwoolf-bounces at lists.service.ohio-state.edu>]
>>>> *On Behalf Of *Kimberly Coates****
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> *Sent:* Tuesday, June 18, 2013 12:27 PM
>>>> *To:* Gregory Jordan Dekter; Anne Margaret Daniel****
>>>>
>>>> *Cc:* vwoolf at lists.service.ohio-state.edu****
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> *Subject:* Re: [Vwoolf] staging female author suicides****
>>>>
>>>>  ****
>>>>
>>>> Greg:****
>>>>
>>>>  ****
>>>>
>>>> There is no comparison. The VICE spread is using suicide to sell
>>>> fashion and in doing so it glamorizes and aestheticizes female bodies in
>>>> pain. It also takes our attention far away from the amazing work all of
>>>> these women accomplished. You would think that in an issue announcing
>>>> itself as covering Women's Fiction that the work would be their concern.
>>>> Whatever you want to say about Michael Cunningham and/or the film version
>>>> of his novel The Hours, he isn't guilty of promoting suicide to sell shoes
>>>> and vintage attire!****
>>>>
>>>>  ****
>>>>
>>>> Kim****
>>>>
>>>>  ****
>>>>
>>>> Kimberly Coates, Ph.D.****
>>>>
>>>> Associate Professor of English****
>>>>
>>>> Affiliate Faculty Women's, Gender, and Sexuality Studies/American
>>>> Culture Studies****
>>>>
>>>> Bowling Green State University****
>>>>
>>>> Bowling Green, OH 43403****
>>>>
>>>> Office Phone: 419-372-9189****
>>>>
>>>>  ****
>>>>
>>>>  ****
>>>>
>>>> *From: *Gregory Jordan Dekter <jdekter at gmail.com>
>>>> *Date: *Tuesday, June 18, 2013 3:08 PM
>>>> *To: *Anne Margaret Daniel <daniela at newschool.edu>
>>>> *Cc: *"vwoolf at lists.service.ohio-state.edu" <
>>>> vwoolf at lists.service.ohio-state.edu>
>>>> *Subject: *Re: [Vwoolf] staging female author suicides****
>>>>
>>>>  ****
>>>>
>>>> I'm just wondering of those who oppose this, are you equally offended
>>>> by the portrayal of the same event in "The Hours"?****
>>>>
>>>> On 18 June 2013 15:03, Anne Margaret Daniel <daniela at newschool.edu>
>>>> wrote:****
>>>>
>>>> VICE has removed the online photos, not apologizing very much ("to
>>>> anyone who was hurt or offended") and stating, defensively, that their
>>>> "main goal is to create artful images, with the fashion message following,
>>>> rather than leading."  Taken down online, but still in print.    ****
>>>>
>>>> Here is the Vice statement:
>>>> http://www.vice.com/read/last-words-000741-v20n6****
>>>>
>>>> And here, still online at Inquisitr, is the photo of the model
>>>> portraying Woolf, standing in water and holding a large stone.  No words
>>>> for it, really.****
>>>>
>>>> http://www.inquisitr.com/793059/vices-suicide-fashion-apology/****
>>>>
>>>>  ****
>>>>
>>>>  ****
>>>>
>>>>  ****
>>>>
>>>>  ****
>>>>
>>>> On Tue, Jun 18, 2013 at 1:59 PM, Melanie White <
>>>> melanie.white at comcast.net> wrote:****
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2013/06/18/193014174/book-news-vice-draws-ire-by-staging-female-author-suicides?utm_source&utm_medium=facebook&utm_campaign=20130617
>>>> ****
>>>>
>>>>  ****
>>>>
>>>> Someone said this has been taken down now. ****
>>>>
>>>>
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>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ****
>>>>
>>>>  ****
>>>>
>>>> -- ****
>>>>
>>>>  ****
>>>>
>>>>  ****
>>>>
>>>> Best,****
>>>>
>>>> AMDaniel****
>>>>
>>>> www.annemargaretdaniel.com****
>>>>
>>>>  ****
>>>>
>>>>
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>>>>
>>>>  ****
>>>>
>>>> ** **
>>>>
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>>
>>
>> --
>> Anne E. Fernald<http://www.fordham.edu/academics/programs_at_fordham_/english/faculty/english_faculty/anne_fernald_28537.asp>
>> Director of Writing/Composition at Lincoln Center,
>> Associate Professor of English<http://www.fordham.edu/academics/programs_at_fordham_/english/index.asp>and Women's
>> Studies <http://www.fordham.edu/womens_studies>
>> Fordham University
>> 113 W 60th St.
>> New York NY 10023
>>
>> 212/636-7613
>> fernald at fordham.edu
>>
>>
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