[Vwoolf] staging female author suicides

Wed Jun 19 21:45:51 EDT 2013

To all: I continuously reiterated the nature of these photos as "art"
because a leading criticism originally was that they were simply
advertisements to sell fashion. After examining them, I can tell you that
they are decidedly not. Within that, a critical discussion is great. How
could I oppose any criticism, or think these photos above it?

Anne: that's very funny. I had not heard the term "mansplaining" before.
Thanks for the joke, which I assume it has to be.

Greg

On 19 June 2013 20:54, ANNE Fernald [Staff/Faculty [A&S]] <
fernald at fordham.edu> wrote:

> Greg,
>
> With all due respect, the vwoolf listserv may not be the best forum for
> mansplaining,
>
> Anne
>
>
> On Wed, Jun 19, 2013 at 4:12 PM, Gregory Jordan Dekter <jdekter at gmail.com>wrote:
>
>> Brenda,
>>
>> I agree with you that discussion of Woolf's suicide is excessive, and the
>> fact that it can overshadow her literary output in the minds of some is
>> troubling. It is an unfortunate phenomenon, as you know, not at all
>> exclusive to Woolf. For whatever reason, suicide itself (and often not the
>> illness that drives a person to it) is a topic of great interest in
>> society, and even more so when the subject is well known. That is not the
>> position from which I defend this photo spread. There is no doubt the
>> spread is cliche. I do not think it is particularly good art--but it *is*art.
>>
>>> (Were there captions running under Marlon Brando in *Apocalypse Now*informing viewers who made his clothing?  Do we see that
>>> *anywhere* except when the clothing is being publicized as fashion?
>>
>> Yes, we do. *Apocalypse Now *was precisely my example of the contrary.
>> It carried no credits at all. Not actors, writer, director, or the author
>> that influenced it had their names displayed on screen at any time. Just
>> about every other contemporary film we watch, however, always carries a
>> credit to the costume designer, right along side the actors, writer,
>> director, etc. For the purpose of a magazine we call it a fashion designer.
>> In film we call it a costume designer. It means the same thing. The
>> costumes in these photos came from somewhere, and crediting the source they
>> came from is not tantamount to direct advertising.
>>
>>> Have you ever seen someone after they’ve committed suicide?  It isn’t
>>> pretty.  They’re not nicely arranged on the pavement in fashionable
>>> clothing unmarred by blood or dirt, as if they’d suddenly decided to lay
>>> down gently and take a nap.
>>
>> Generally, no. Realistically, no. But art is often about shifting
>> perception away from the real. Do you remember that photograph,
>> published in Life magazine but made popular by Andy Warhol in the work
>> "Suicide (Fallen Body)"? It depicts the suicide of an otherwise unknown
>> woman. The Life magazine caption read: “At the bottom of the Empire
>> State Building the body of Evelyn McHale reposes calmly in grotesque bier,
>> her falling body punched into the top of a car.” The photo was apparently
>> called "the most beautiful suicide". Here is some information about it:
>> http://iconicphotos.wordpress.com/2010/07/16/the-empire-state-of-leap/There is more that could be said on this. Staged vs found photographs, for
>> one. But that is not my point. Merely, it is not the duty of art to express
>> reality.
>>
>>> It also implies that intellectual gifts and artistic talents in women
>>> somehow lead to suicide,
>>
>> Any group of images by an artist usually has some cohesive idea behind
>> it. Depicted here are the images of women who did, or attempted to, kill
>> themselves. Is it unfair to group images by theme, or do you assert that
>> suicide is not a valid theme in art? In any case, I do not agree with your
>> reading of the images here.
>>
>>> which has the obvious effect of discouraging women from pursuing their
>>> own gifts and talents.  Further, it encourages people who suffer from
>>> psychological problems accompanied by thoughts of suicide to understand
>>> themselves as potential geniuses rather than to understand themselves as
>>> needing professional help.
>>
>> Again you have made an assertion that I see no evidence for.
>>
>> Greg
>>
>> On 19 June 2013 14:56, Brenda S. Helt <helt0010 at umn.edu> wrote:
>>
>>> Greg, I think a lot of those of us who teach, study, and write about
>>> Woolf’s work are “bothered by” the fact that Woolf’s suicide is so often
>>> cited and capitalized upon.  In fact, many have written about this
>>> unfortunate phenomenon.  I saw that exhibit at the NYPL as well, and I was
>>> definitely bothered by the fact that the curators found it necessary to
>>> link the walking stick to her suicide.  Not *surprised*, since it’s
>>> such a common gambit, but definitely bothered by.  It’s a *library*;
>>> how about a note mentioning the long walks on the Sussex downs she’d take
>>> with this stick while conceptualizing a novel?  The result is that many
>>> students come into our classes knowing only that one fact about Woolf, just
>>> as they know that one detail about Plath.  And yes, many of us are also
>>> bothered by the opening of *The Hours*, which capitalizes on Woolf’s
>>> suicide and aetheticizes it.  I’ve seen the VICE spread, and it certainly
>>> was a (misguided, at the least) attempt to market fashion.  (Were there
>>> captions running under Marlon Brando in *Apocalypse Now* informing
>>> viewers who made his clothing?  Do we see that *anywhere* except when
>>> the clothing is being publicized as fashion?  This fashion spread--as
>>> somebody on the list already said, I believe--was suicide porn.)****
>>>
>>> ** **
>>>
>>> Have you ever seen someone after they’ve committed suicide?  It isn’t
>>> pretty.  They’re not nicely arranged on the pavement in fashionable
>>> clothing unmarred by blood or dirt, as if they’d suddenly decided to lay
>>> down gently and take a nap.  Woolf was nearly unrecognizable after several
>>> days under water.  The VICE spread fetishizes and aestheticizes the suicide
>>> of female intellectuals.  It also implies that intellectual gifts and
>>> artistic talents in women somehow lead to suicide, which has the obvious
>>> effect of discouraging women from pursuing their own gifts and talents.
>>>  Further, it encourages people who suffer from psychological problems
>>> accompanied by thoughts of suicide to understand themselves as potential
>>> geniuses rather than to understand themselves as needing professional
>>> help.  There is no way to recuperate any of that.****
>>>
>>> ** **
>>>
>>> Brenda Helt****
>>>
>>> ** **
>>>
>>> *From:* vwoolf-bounces at lists.service.ohio-state.edu [mailto:
>>> vwoolf-bounces at lists.service.ohio-state.edu] *On Behalf Of *Gregory
>>> Jordan Dekter
>>> *Sent:* Wednesday, June 19, 2013 11:23 AM
>>> *To:* vwoolf at lists.service.ohio-state.edu
>>>
>>> *Subject:* Re: [Vwoolf] staging female author suicides****
>>>
>>> ** **
>>>
>>> Perhaps some of you were able to see the photographs on the VICE website
>>> before they were taken down. I had only been able to find a few out of
>>> context (without captions), and so reserved my response until I could get a
>>> copy of the print edition, which I have now done. I think I am somewhat
>>> informed now to discuss it. ****
>>>
>>> Purely aesthetically, I would like to say that these are beautifully
>>> arranged and photographed images. They are dramatic, and evocative. They do
>>> not seem to me exploitative, or at least not in a way that is inconsistent
>>> with any other contemporary art. ****
>>>
>>> Most importantly they are depictions of tragic events, with any
>>> narrative enforced only by the small caption stating the subject and a
>>> brief line about their death. For example, for Woolf the caption reads:*
>>> ***
>>>
>>> VIRGINIA WOOLF, 59
>>> *Born: January 25, 1882
>>> (London, England)
>>> Died: March 28, 1941
>>> (Lewes, England)
>>> Cause of death: drowning*****
>>>
>>> Kimberly, you had said the spread is being used to sell fashion. This is
>>> really not the case. Although this series is indexed in the magazine under
>>> "Fashion", I think that is an incredibly subjective term, and the general
>>> intention of the magazine needs to be considered. This is not a commercial
>>> fashion magazine. The entire tone of VICE is artistic and/or experimental
>>> (I don't know of many other free national publications that devote entire
>>> issues to contemporary fiction). It should not be considered along side
>>> Cosmo and the like. ****
>>>
>>> It seems the primary reason this spread bothers most of you is that the
>>> clothing designers are specifically credited for the examples of their work
>>> that appear in each photograph. Let me clear up that these credits are
>>> minimal, and provide no information on how or where to buy this clothing.
>>> It is no more an advert than any other credit is an advert of the
>>> contributor. Clothing design is a valid medium of artistic expression, and
>>> it seems to me these designers were credited as artists, just as the
>>> models, stylist, and photographer were. There is nothing explicitly for
>>> sale in these photographs. ****
>>>
>>> Let me put it another way. The clothing we wear, often overlooked, is an
>>> essential part of our existence. Every shirt, dress, or pair of pants you
>>> put on was designed and made by someone. Should a designer of something not
>>> rightfully be credited for their work if the thing they designed is for
>>> sale? Or do you all consider "fashion" too flippant a form to be taken
>>> seriously? Or, conversely, should no one involved in a particularly heavy
>>> subject be credited at the risk of distracting from, or devaluing their own
>>> work? (The film "Apocalypse Now" was originally shown without opening or
>>> closing credits for this reason--but it is a rare instance).****
>>>
>>> If the distaste is that the images use the theme of suicide as a point
>>> of interest, I am reminded of a recent experience I had. Last year I
>>> attended an exhibit at the New York Public Library that included some Woolf
>>> artifacts. One item was a diary. Another was her walking stick.
>>> Interestingly, the exhibit made particular note that the walking stick
>>> displayed was the one Woolf had with her when she walked into the River
>>> Ouse the day she killed herself. I wonder what additional enticement the
>>> curator felt describing the item by its final use would create. Was the
>>> simple fact that the walking stick was owned by Virginia Woolf not enough?
>>> Was some additional allure manifest in its passive connection to her
>>> suicide? I don't know the answer to this, but I also do not remember anyone
>>> being bothered by it. ****
>>>
>>> Greg****
>>>
>>> ** **
>>>
>>> On 18 June 2013 19:55, Jean Mallinson <annaj at telus.net> wrote:****
>>>
>>> I'm glad it was taken down but the apology  shows a failure to grasp jut
>>> how deeply offensive the whole scheme was. It is a kind of suicide porn and
>>> suggests a very depraved taste. It made me feel sad and angry.
>>> Jean ****
>>>
>>> On 6/18/2013 1:24 PM, Melanie White wrote:****
>>>
>>> Apart from VW, the characters in The Hours were fictional, and VW’s
>>> death was decades ago, whereas Iris Chang’s family and loved ones probably
>>> are still very much processing their grief over her suicide. The image of
>>> her was breathtakingly insensitive and offensive to me for that reason.
>>> ****
>>>
>>>  ****
>>>
>>> *From:* vwoolf-bounces at lists.service.ohio-state.edu [
>>> mailto:vwoolf-bounces at lists.service.ohio-state.edu<vwoolf-bounces at lists.service.ohio-state.edu>]
>>> *On Behalf Of *Kimberly Coates****
>>>
>>>
>>> *Sent:* Tuesday, June 18, 2013 12:27 PM
>>> *To:* Gregory Jordan Dekter; Anne Margaret Daniel****
>>>
>>> *Cc:* vwoolf at lists.service.ohio-state.edu****
>>>
>>>
>>> *Subject:* Re: [Vwoolf] staging female author suicides****
>>>
>>>  ****
>>>
>>> Greg:****
>>>
>>>  ****
>>>
>>> There is no comparison. The VICE spread is using suicide to sell fashion
>>> and in doing so it glamorizes and aestheticizes female bodies in pain. It
>>> also takes our attention far away from the amazing work all of these women
>>> accomplished. You would think that in an issue announcing itself as
>>> covering Women's Fiction that the work would be their concern. Whatever you
>>> want to say about Michael Cunningham and/or the film version of his novel
>>> The Hours, he isn't guilty of promoting suicide to sell shoes and vintage
>>> attire!****
>>>
>>>  ****
>>>
>>> Kim****
>>>
>>>  ****
>>>
>>> Kimberly Coates, Ph.D.****
>>>
>>> Associate Professor of English****
>>>
>>> Affiliate Faculty Women's, Gender, and Sexuality Studies/American
>>> Culture Studies****
>>>
>>> Bowling Green State University****
>>>
>>> Bowling Green, OH 43403****
>>>
>>> Office Phone: 419-372-9189****
>>>
>>>  ****
>>>
>>>  ****
>>>
>>> *From: *Gregory Jordan Dekter <jdekter at gmail.com>
>>> *Date: *Tuesday, June 18, 2013 3:08 PM
>>> *To: *Anne Margaret Daniel <daniela at newschool.edu>
>>> *Cc: *"vwoolf at lists.service.ohio-state.edu" <
>>> vwoolf at lists.service.ohio-state.edu>
>>> *Subject: *Re: [Vwoolf] staging female author suicides****
>>>
>>>  ****
>>>
>>> I'm just wondering of those who oppose this, are you equally offended by
>>> the portrayal of the same event in "The Hours"?****
>>>
>>> On 18 June 2013 15:03, Anne Margaret Daniel <daniela at newschool.edu>
>>> wrote:****
>>>
>>> VICE has removed the online photos, not apologizing very much ("to
>>> anyone who was hurt or offended") and stating, defensively, that their
>>> "main goal is to create artful images, with the fashion message following,
>>> rather than leading."  Taken down online, but still in print.    ****
>>>
>>> Here is the Vice statement:
>>> http://www.vice.com/read/last-words-000741-v20n6****
>>>
>>> And here, still online at Inquisitr, is the photo of the model
>>> portraying Woolf, standing in water and holding a large stone.  No words
>>> for it, really.****
>>>
>>> http://www.inquisitr.com/793059/vices-suicide-fashion-apology/****
>>>
>>>  ****
>>>
>>>  ****
>>>
>>>  ****
>>>
>>>  ****
>>>
>>> On Tue, Jun 18, 2013 at 1:59 PM, Melanie White <
>>> melanie.white at comcast.net> wrote:****
>>>
>>>
>>> http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2013/06/18/193014174/book-news-vice-draws-ire-by-staging-female-author-suicides?utm_source&utm_medium=facebook&utm_campaign=20130617
>>> ****
>>>
>>>  ****
>>>
>>> Someone said this has been taken down now. ****
>>>
>>>
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>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ****
>>>
>>>  ****
>>>
>>> -- ****
>>>
>>>  ****
>>>
>>>  ****
>>>
>>> Best,****
>>>
>>> AMDaniel****
>>>
>>> www.annemargaretdaniel.com****
>>>
>>>  ****
>>>
>>>
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>>>
>>>  ****
>>>
>>> ** **
>>>
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>>
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>
>
> --
> Anne E. Fernald<http://www.fordham.edu/academics/programs_at_fordham_/english/faculty/english_faculty/anne_fernald_28537.asp>
> Director of Writing/Composition at Lincoln Center,
> Associate Professor of English<http://www.fordham.edu/academics/programs_at_fordham_/english/index.asp>and Women's
> Studies <http://www.fordham.edu/womens_studies>
> Fordham University
> 113 W 60th St.
> New York NY 10023
>
> 212/636-7613
> fernald at fordham.edu
>
>
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