[Heb-NACO] vocalizing a word question

Mon Aug 7 16:52:55 EDT 2017

Hi Janet:

Take a look at the romanization table.  It's not defined, and every
possible instance where it could be used one finds that  a single letter,
"e," is used instead.

Using "ei" to describe that particular sound does unnecessary violence to
the system of romanization, and creates issues for the poor catalogers who
have to clean up the mess(es) at the end of the day.

B

On Mon, Aug 7, 2017 at 12:59 PM, Janet Shamir <Janet.Shamir at nli.org.il>
wrote:

> Yes, it is a diphthong, the Sheva is there to indicate it (See Haim's
> correspondence with the Academy of the Hebrew Language).  A Tsere and Yod
> without a Sheva (such as in the word bet-) do not form a diphthong.
>
> Where does it say that the Romanization system does not allow for the
> diphthong "ei"?
>
> In Hebrew words it is not allowed, because it contradicts the
> vocalization, which is "e". The rules also state that "All sheṿas in Hebrew
> initial syllables are sheṿa na‘ and are transcribed as "e" regardless of
> pronunciation" (HCM, p. 17), and yet "The first sheṿa in a foreign loan
> word with an initial consonantal cluster is generally treated as a sheṿa
> naḥ" (HCM, p. 19). Because foreign words in Hebrew texts are still
> foreign. So "ei" should only be incorrect when the transliterated word
> is in Hebrew.
>
>
>
>
>
> ---
>
>
>
> Janet Shamir
>
> Hebrew Cataloging Department
>
> National Library of Israel
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Heb-naco [mailto:heb-naco-bounces+janet.shamir=nli.org.il at lists.
> osu.edu] *On Behalf Of *Robert M. TALBOTT
> *Sent:* Friday, July 28, 2017 6:28 PM
> *To:* Hebrew Name Authority Funnel
> * Subject: Re: [Heb-NACO] vocalizing a word question *
>
>
>
> Yes, that's all true, but unfortunately the romanization system does not
> allow for the diphthong "ei," (yes, the tsere and yud form a diphthong,
> whether there's a sheva under the yud or not) and retooling the the
> standard is far more work than it's worth.
>
>
>
> Please do use "ei" while transliterating.  It is incorrect
>
>
>
> I think Aaron has an idea worth exploring: creating a rule to deal with
> foreign loans to accommodate the source and the form.
>
>
>
> On Fri, Jul 28, 2017 at 6:47 AM, Shinohara, Jasmin <jshino at pobox.upenn.edu>
> wrote:
>
> I second Janet’s romanization (for whatever that’s worth … J). Shabat
> shalom, Jasmin
>
>
>
> *From:* Heb-naco [mailto:heb-naco-bounces+jshino=pobox.upenn.edu at lists.
> osu.edu] *On Behalf Of *Janet Shamir
> *Sent:* Friday, July 28, 2017 7:55 AM
> *To:* Hebrew Name Authority Funnel
> * Subject: Re: [Heb-NACO] vocalizing a word question *
>
>
>
> The online Rav-Milim dictionary and Morfix are both products of Melingo
> Ltd., a subsidiary of Britannica. Melingo owns the sites hosting those two
> dictionaries as well as a few other Hebrew language related sites.
>
> https://melingo.com/en/
>
>
>
> דייט  is not a Hebrew word. It's a common transliteration of an English
> word, widely used by Israelis, and pronounced approximately as "date" is
> pronounced by American English speakers. Personally, I have never
> encountered an Israeli who went on a "det" J.
>
> Here are a few minutes from an Israeli T.V. show. You can see what Israeli
> children think of dates and hear how the children (and the presenter)
> pronounce the word.
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p9TTGaXwOnk
>
>
>
> **Any Hebrew letter with a Sheva under it is consonantal** and cannot be
> ignored in Romanization.
>
>
>
> The way I see it, using a y to indicate the Yod or ignoring the Sheva (and
> the Yod) are both against our Romanization policy.
>
> ·         There is a Dalet. There's a Tsere under the Dalet. **de**
> (ALA-LC Hebraica Romanization Tables, HCM p. 10)
>
> ·         There's a Yod. There's a Sheva under it, which indicates that
> it's consonantal. This consonantal Yod is not followed by a vowel. **i**
> (HCM, P. 19)
>
> ·         There's a final Tet. **ṭ** (ALA-LC Hebraica Romanization
> Tables, HCM p. 10)
>
>
>
> I think that the issues of Yod, Sheva and foreign/loan words should all be
> rethought and/or revised. They keep leading to problems.
>
>
>
> Shabbat shalom,
>
> Janet
>
>
>
> ---
>
>
>
> Janet Shamir
>
> Hebrew Cataloging Department
>
> National Library of Israel
>
>
>
> 
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Heb-naco [mailto:heb-naco-bounces+janet.shamir=nli.org.il at lists.
> osu.edu <heb-naco-bounces+janet.shamir=nli.org.il at lists.osu.edu>] *On
> Behalf Of *Heidi G Lerner
>
> *Sent:* Wednesday, July 26, 2017 8:27 PM
>
> *To:* Hebrew Name Authority Funnel
>
> *Subject: Re: [Heb-NACO] vocalizing a word question*
>
>
>
> Hi all, Rav-Milim was discussed at a 2006 AJL RAS Cataloging
> Committee Meeting. Here is the record of what was decided.
>
>
>
> "Hebrew dictionaries to supplement Even-Shoshan need to be authorized,
> especially for newer words. Rav milim and Morfix (online) were suggested.
> Use of these can be recommended for libraries with access to them."
>
>
>
> I strongly encourage the cataloging committee to vote on the use of
> Rav-Milim (not sure about the strength of the relationship between Morfix
> and Rav-Milim, does anybody know)? We need to have an authorized source to
> consult when vocalizing and transcribing new words that have entered the
> Hebrew language regardless of origin.
>
>
>
> I much prefer the romanization of "דייט" or "דיט" to be "deṭ".
>
>
>
> I have never encountered a Hebrew word vocalized as "ey". Anyone seeing
> "deyṭ" would consider it a Yiddish word;   if the word is encountered in a
> Yiddish context then I would romanize it as "Deyt".
>
>
>
> Best, Heidi
>
>
>
> Heidi G. Lerner
>
> Metadata Librarian for Hebraica and Judaica
>
> Metadata Dept.
>
> Stanford University Libraries
>
> Stanford, CA 94305-6004
>
> ph: 650-725-9953 <(650)%20725-9953>
>
> fax: 650-725-1120 <(650)%20725-1120>
>
> e-mail: lerner at stanford.edu
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Heb-naco <heb-naco-bounces+lerner=stanford.edu at lists.osu.edu> on
> behalf of Dickel, Geraldine <geraldine.dickel at yale.edu>
>
> *Sent:* Wednesday, July 26, 2017 6:37 AM
>
> *To:* Hebrew Name Authority Funnel
>
> *Subject: Re: [Heb-NACO] vocalizing a word question*
>
>
>
> So then the Romanization should be deyṭ?
>
>
>
> Should the Cataloging Committee hold a vote on using Rav Milim or Morfix
> as an authorized source for Romanization of words that are not found in the
> most recent edition of Even-Shoshan?  Or should we wait until next summer’s
> cataloging committee meeting to discuss the question further?
>
>
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Jerry Anne Dickel
>
>
>
> Hebraica Catalog librarian
>
> Yale University Library
>
>
>
> *From:* Heb-naco [mailto:heb-naco-bounces at lists.osu.edu
> <heb-naco-bounces at lists.osu.edu>] *On Behalf Of *Janet Shamir
>
> *Sent:* Wednesday, July 26, 2017 8:43 AM
>
> *To:* Hebrew Name Authority Funnel <heb-naco at lists.osu.edu>
>
> *Subject:* Re: [Heb-NACO] vocalizing a word question
>
>
>
> I'm sorry, but I disagree. This is not a case of Tsere Male. It is a Tsere
> (Romanized as e), followed by a consonantal Yod (i). The Yod is not part of
> the nikkud and therefore should be Romanized separately.
>
> Tsere Male is Romanized as "e" because according to the Sepharadi
> tradition it is **not** vocalized as a diphthong. The correspondence with
> the Academy of the Hebrew language, quoted by Haim, shows that the Sheva
> under the Yod inדייט  is there **to indicate the diphthong**, and that it
> is* *not** vocalized as the Yod in בית, and therefore should not be
> Romanized the same way.
>
>
>
>
>
> ---
>
>
>
> Janet Shamir
>
> Hebrew Cataloging Department
>
> National Library of Israel
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Heb-naco [mailto:heb-naco-bounces+janet.shamir=nli.org.il at lists.
> osu.edu <heb-naco-bounces+janet.shamir=nli.org.il at lists.osu.edu>] *On
> Behalf Of *Yossi Galron
>
> *Sent:* Tuesday, July 25, 2017 4:46 PM
>
> *To:* Hebrew Name Authority Funnel
>
> *Subject: Re: [Heb-NACO] vocalizing a word question*
>
>
>
> So according to our rules (if there is a Tsere under the Dalet), we have
> to romanize it as Det.
>
> Am I correct?
>
>
>
> Yossi
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Joseph (Yossi) Galron-Goldschläger
>
> E-Mail: galron.1 at osu.edu  or jgalron at gmail.com
>
> Tel.: (614) 292-3362,  Fax: (614)292-1918 <(614)%20292-1918>
>
> Lexicon of Modern Hebrew Literature: http://go.osu.edu/hebrewlit
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__go.osu.edu_hebrewlit&d=DwMGaQ&c=cjytLXgP8ixuoHflwc-poQ&r=cX-JfhQlUwhLVWvvsRM8LpRtWoJnc-1xOAkRHgoNXs0&m=v2JJTzWeGRAQyvWjy0aNiJ67X50klm8iIx6Buhil0PI&s=1oOCtbEkWR3B7Si95kJR1BTlNxces8lWpNM1IVEgWu8&e=>
>
>
>
> On Tue, Jul 25, 2017 at 9:27 AM, Gottschalk, Haim <hgot at loc.gov> wrote:
>
> According to an email correspondence with the Academy of the Hebrew
> Language:
>
>
>
> “The word דייט is vocalized with צירי under the דל"ת and (silent) שווא under
> the יו"ד, thus:  דֵּיְט.”
>
>
>
> And a follow up email
>
>
>
> “the שווא under the יו"ד, though silent, is there to indicate that the יו"ד
> *is* pronounced -- i.e., to indicate the diphthong "ey" ("deyt").
>  "Native" Hebrew words, by comparison, never have a שווא under a יו"ד that
> follows צירי (compare -בֵּית = "be*t*").”
>
>
>
>
>
> Haim
>
>
>
> *From:* Heb-naco [mailto:heb-naco-bounces+hgot=loc.gov at lists.osu.edu] *On
> Behalf Of *Janet Shamir
>
> *Sent:* Tuesday, July 25, 2017 9:06 AM
>
>
>
> *To:* Hebrew Name Authority Funnel
>
> *Subject:* Re: [Heb-NACO] vocalizing a word question
>
>
>
> Rav-Milim and Morfix normalize it to דֵּיְט, with a Sheva under the Yod
> which indicates that it's consonantal. This is in accordance with the
> transliteration rules of the Academy of the Hebrew Language for foreign
> names (which do not necessarily apply for loan words, but are often used
> for them). In the case of a word without nikkud, those rules require a
> double Yod to indicate the original pronunciation.
>
>
>
> A double-Yod is common in loan words, such as  טייפor דייט, as a
> transliteration of the diphthong EY.
>
> They are pronounced with a double Sheva at the end, both silent, as two
> consequent Shevaim at the end of a word are always quiescent.
>
>
>
> In my opinion, Yiddish Romanization should only be used for Yiddish words,
> since "a distinctively Yiddish name in a Hebrew context may be romanized as
> Yiddish" (hence, a name/word which is not distinctively Yiddish may not be
> Romanized as such).
>
> If the Romanization attempts to represent the sound of the Hebrew words as
> they are pronounced by modern Israeli speakers, then loan words which
> contain a double Yod should be Romanized according to this pronunciation.
>
> According to the ALA/LC Romanization rules, the Yod in Hebrew is Romanized
> as "y" only when it is followed by a vowel. However, the form daiṭ would be
> vocalized as (IPA) /daɪt/ instead of /deɪt/.
>
> Thus, I would Romanize טייפ  and  דייט as ṭeip and  deiṭ, and words with
> the diphthong AY, such as בייט (byte) or טיים  (time), as baiṭ and ṭaim,
> as the diphthong  is Romanization in ALA-LC Romanization rules.
>
> Sometimes,  יי is used in loan words as part of the Hebrew
> transliteration of "-tion", in which case they are pronounced (and in my
> opinion, should be Romanized as) "shen":  פרוטקשיין, קונקשיין, קולקשיין  (protection,
> connection and collection).
>
>
>
> As for using Rav-Milim, I think it is a reliable source for the
> vocalization of contemporary Hebrew and loan words. Its editors can be
> contacted online with questions/corrections.
>
> Their policy is described here:
>
> http://www.ravmilim.co.il/adv/general/index.htm#m
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.ravmilim.co.il_adv_general_index.htm-23m&d=DwMGaQ&c=cjytLXgP8ixuoHflwc-poQ&r=cX-JfhQlUwhLVWvvsRM8LpRtWoJnc-1xOAkRHgoNXs0&m=v2JJTzWeGRAQyvWjy0aNiJ67X50klm8iIx6Buhil0PI&s=F1lPlYpbMhMXa9wLazXM0htaalJbh-CEZhP8f7rM8pI&e=>
>
>
>
>
>
> ---
>
>
>
> Janet Shamir
>
> Hebrew Cataloging Department
>
> National Library of Israel
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Heb-naco [mailto:heb-naco-bounces+janet.shamir=nli.org.il at lists.
> osu.edu <heb-naco-bounces+janet.shamir=nli.org.il at lists.osu.edu>] *On
> Behalf Of *Heidi G Lerner
>
> *Sent:* Thursday, July 20, 2017 11:37 PM
>
> *To:* Hebrew Name Authority Funnel
>
> *Subject: Re: [Heb-NACO] vocalizing a word question*
>
>
>
> mea culpa:
>
>
>
> in Rav-Milim and Morfix דייט has been normalized to דיט, so it should be
> romanized as "deṭ'
>
>
>
>
>
> I would like propose that we adopt Rav-Milim as another stanford for
> romanization/vocalization for the more contemporary words that have entered
> the Hebrew language since E-S' last edition of 2007 and do not appear there
> or in Alcalay.
>
>
>
> i believe that we talked about this in years gone by.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Heidi G. Lerner
>
> Metadata Librarian for Hebraica and Judaica
>
> Metadata Dept.
>
> Stanford University Libraries
>
> Stanford, CA 94305-6004
>
> ph: 650-725-9953 <(650)%20725-9953>
>
> fax: 650-725-1120 <(650)%20725-1120>
>
> e-mail: lerner at stanford.edu
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Heb-naco <heb-naco-bounces at lists.osu.edu> on behalf of Yossi
> Galron <jgalron at gmail.com>
>
> *Sent:* Thursday, July 20, 2017 1:31 PM
>
> *To:* Hebrew Name Authority Funnel
>
> *Subject: Re: [Heb-NACO] vocalizing a word question*
>
>
>
> Our rule is that it should be Dait  (two Yods are "ai")
>
>
>
> Yossi
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Joseph (Yossi) Galron-Goldschläger
>
> E-Mail: galron.1 at osu.edu  or jgalron at gmail.com
>
> Tel.: (614) 292-3362,  Fax: (614)292-1918 <(614)%20292-1918>
>
> Lexicon of Modern Hebrew Literature: http://go.osu.edu/hebrewlit
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__go.osu.edu_hebrewlit&d=DwMGaQ&c=cjytLXgP8ixuoHflwc-poQ&r=cX-JfhQlUwhLVWvvsRM8LpRtWoJnc-1xOAkRHgoNXs0&m=v2JJTzWeGRAQyvWjy0aNiJ67X50klm8iIx6Buhil0PI&s=1oOCtbEkWR3B7Si95kJR1BTlNxces8lWpNM1IVEgWu8&e=>
>
>
>
> On Thu, Jul 20, 2017 at 4:28 PM, Gottschalk, Haim <hgot at loc.gov> wrote:
>
> Dear colleagues:
>
>
>
> How would you vocalize דייט? I could not the word in the dictionaries,
> nor find it vocalized in worldcat, nor on the internet. The word is
> pronounced as “date” as going out on a date. I have Romanized it as “deyit”.
>
>
>
> Thanks in advance.
>
>
>
> Haim
>
>
>
> **************************************************************************
>
> Haim A Gottschalk (Librarian)
>
> Library of Congress, Israel and Judaica Section
>
> 101 Independence Avenue, SE, LM-537 (4222)
>
> Washington, D.C. 20540-4222 U.S.A.
>
>
>
> Phone - +1 (202) 707-2498 <(202)%20707-2498> * Fax - +1 (202) 707-4587
> <(202)%20707-4587> * hgot at loc.gov
>
>
>
> *THIS EMAIL IS NOT CLASSIFIED.*
>
> *Ideas & opinions in this email are not intended to represent those of the
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>
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>
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>
> --
>
> Bob Talbott
>
> Principal cataloger/Hebraica cataloger
>
> UC Berkeley
>
> 250 Moffitt
>
> Berkeley, CA 94720
>
> I'm just mad about Saffron
>
>

-- 
Bob Talbott

Principal cataloger/Hebraica cataloger

UC Berkeley

250 Moffitt

Berkeley, CA 94720

I'm just mad about Saffron
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