[Heb-NACO] Romanization Question
sshtuhl
sshtuhl at upenn.edu
Wed Nov 11 12:03:11 EST 2015
Yossi,
I took the examples from Alcalay to demonstrate the inconsistencies it
presents and the confusion that goes with them. And - my name should
indeed be Romainzed Semadar but I write Smadar since no one pronounces
it with a sheva na.
Smadar
On 11/11/2015 11:18 AM, Yossi Galron wrote:
>
> Semadar (or do you prefer Smadar :-)
> The examples you brought are not according to the practice we were
> using and are not "correct", but in general I support the discussion
> and we need to reconsider the matter.
> Kol tuv
> Yossi [also not according to the rules]
>
> On Nov 11, 2015 11:10 AM, "sshtuhl" <sshtuhl at upenn.edu
> <mailto:sshtuhl at upenn.edu>> wrote:
>
> I agree with Barry. When we look at the word pesikhologyah we have
> over ten sub-fields that should be Rominized as: psikhologyah
> genetit, psikhologyah hevdelit. However, there is also
> pesikhologyah shimushit without any visible reason for the
> difference. Likewise, there is pesikhopati but ishiyut
> psikhopatit. This inconsistency confuses matters.
> Smadar
>
> On 11/10/2015 10:39 PM, Barry Walfish wrote:
>> Maybe it's time to revisit this rule and stop using Alcalay as an
>> authority. Maybe those two cases are typos.
>> So right now we have:
>> kriminologyah
>> statistiskah
>> but deramah.
>>
>> psikhologyah
>> psikhi, etc.
>> but pesefas.
>>
>> Note that in the Rav-milim online edition, all of these have a
>> sheva under the first letter.
>>
>> The logical and consistent rule would be to treat all these words
>> as loan words and not put in the sheva na.
>>
>> Why should Alcalay trump logic, consistency, and current usage?
>> How would a reader know about this obscure, case by case rule?
>>
>> I can assure you that no native speaker of Hebrew says deramah or
>> pesefas.
>>
>> I guess this all goes to show how imperfect and difficult the
>> system we're using is. Hurray for the vernacular.
>>
>> Barry
>>
>> Barry Dov Walfish, Ph.D.
>> Judaica Specialist
>> University of Toronto Libraries
>> Toronto, ON M5S 1A5
>> Canada
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> *From:* Heb-naco
>> [heb-naco-bounces+barry.walfish=utoronto.ca at lists.osu.edu
>> <mailto:heb-naco-bounces+barry.walfish=utoronto.ca at lists.osu.edu>] on
>> behalf of Heidi G Lerner [lerner at stanford.edu
>> <mailto:lerner at stanford.edu>]
>> *Sent:* Tuesday, November 10, 2015 5:39 PM
>> *To:* Hebrew Name Authority Funnel
>> *Subject:* Re: [Heb-NACO] Romanization Question
>>
>> I am revising my early opinion. I think that Jay is correct and
>> he went to a valid reference work.
>>
>>
>> Bes, Heidi
>>
>>
>> Our instructions for foreign loan words in Hebraica Cataloging
>> are quite clear:
>>
>>
>> /The first shev.a in a foreign loan word with an initial
>> consonantal cluster is generally treated as a shev.a nah.. For
>> correct romanization it is necessary to consult Even-Shoshan and
>> Alcalay on a case-by-case basis. These initial clusters retain
>> the effect of vowel "heightening"--the shev.a of the prefixes
>> be-, ke-, and le- becomes a h.irik.: bi-, ki-, li-./
>> /ALA-LC Romanization:/
>> /Israel. Lishkah ha-merkazit Ii-st?at?ist?ik.ah./
>> /?????. ???? ??????? ??????????./
>> /Universit?ah ha-'Ivrit bi-Yerushalayim. Makhon li-k.riminologyah./
>> /?????????? ?????? ????????. ???? ?????????????/
>> /but:/
>> /deramah [cf. Alcalay; translation: drama]/
>> /A few loan words are also treated as though exempt from the
>> rules governing the aspiration/ non-aspiration of b/v, k/kh, and
>> p/f when preceded by an open syllable./
>> /be-Polin [not: be-Folin] (translation: in Poland)/
>>
>>
>> Heidi G. Lerner
>>
>> Metadata Librarian for Hebraica and Judaica
>>
>> Metadata Dept.
>>
>> Stanford University Libraries
>>
>> Stanford, CA 94305-6004
>>
>> ph: 650-725-9953 <tel:650-725-9953>
>>
>> fax: 650-725-1120 <tel:650-725-1120>
>>
>> e-mail: lerner at stanford.edu <mailto:lerner at stanford.edu>
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> *From:* Heb-naco <heb-naco-bounces at lists.osu.edu>
>> <mailto:heb-naco-bounces at lists.osu.edu> on behalf of Jay Rovner
>> <JAROVNER at JTSA.EDU> <mailto:JAROVNER at JTSA.EDU>
>> *Sent:* Tuesday, November 10, 2015 7:37 AM
>> *To:* Hebrew Name Authority Funnel
>> *Subject:* Re: [Heb-NACO] Romanization Question
>>
>> I forgot the dictionary tallies of preceding messages. I have
>> only Alcalay, from which I conclude that we are not here
>> Romanizing a Greek letter. We are, rather, Romanizing a Hebrew
>> word. My Alcalay edition treats /pesefas/ and /deramah/ as Hebrew
>> vocabulary words, vocalizing the first consonant with a /sheva,
>> /which it does not do for /psikholog/. This is not a question of
>> etymology, but of usage. I think that Israeli speakers pronounce
>> the /sheva/ of /pesafas /if only because that helps them accent
>> the final syllable (unfortunately they ignore a lot of other
>> mobile shevas, ones thatwe do -- and do not -- regard in our
>> Romanizing).
>>
>> JR
>>
>> Jay Rovner, PhD
>>
>> Manuscript Bibliographer
>>
>> The Library of The Jewish Theological Seminary
>>
>> 5501 Library
>>
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>>
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>>
>> *From:*Heb-naco [mailto:heb-naco-bounces at lists.osu.edu] *On
>> Behalf Of *Jasmin Shinohara
>> *Sent:* Monday, November 09, 2015 3:53 PM
>> *To:* heb-naco at lists.osu.edu <mailto:heb-naco at lists.osu.edu>
>> *Subject:* Re: [Heb-NACO] Romanization Question
>>
>> Agreed, Neil. Barry noted the fact that the Greek word starts
>> with a psi. Does that make any difference to how we want to
>> treat it?
>>
>> On 11/9/2015 3:31 PM, Neil Manel Frau-Cortes wrote:
>>
>> ... which kind of shows that the issue is not very well
>> solved, IMHO.
>>
>> **
>>
>> *Neil M. Frau-Cortes, Ph.D.*
>>
>> Judaica, Hebraica and Metadata Cataloger
>>
>> McKeldin Library
>>
>> University of Maryland
>> College Park, MD 20742
>> Phone (301) 405-9337 <tel:%28301%29%20405-9337>
>>
>> nfrau at umd.edu <mailto:nfrau at umd.edu>
>>
>> *From:*Heb-naco [mailto:heb-naco-bounces at lists.osu.edu] *On
>> Behalf Of *Yossi Galron
>> *Sent:* Monday, November 09, 2015 3:23 PM
>> *To:* Hebrew Name Authority Funnel
>> *Subject:* Re: [Heb-NACO] Romanization Question
>>
>> Heidi,
>> I believe our practice was Pesefas and not Psefas.
>> Yossi
>>
>> On Nov 9, 2015 3:21 PM, "Heidi G Lerner" <lerner at stanford.edu
>> <mailto:lerner at stanford.edu>> wrote:
>>
>> Based on the conversation I agree with Yosi.
>>
>> Unless there is strong disagreement we shall romanize
>>
>> ?????
>>
>> as "psefas"
>>
>> Best, Heidi
>>
>> Heidi G. Lerner
>>
>> Metadata Librarian for Hebraica and Judaica
>>
>> Metadata Dept.
>>
>> Stanford University Libraries
>>
>> Stanford, CA 94305-6004
>>
>> ph: 650-725-9953 <tel:650-725-9953>
>>
>> fax: 650-725-1120 <tel:650-725-1120>
>>
>> e-mail: lerner at stanford.edu <mailto:lerner at stanford.edu>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> *From:*Heb-naco <heb-naco-bounces at lists.osu.edu
>> <mailto:heb-naco-bounces at lists.osu.edu>> on behalf of Yossi
>> Galron <jgalron at gmail.com <mailto:jgalron at gmail.com>>
>> *Sent:* Monday, November 9, 2015 12:17 PM
>> *To:* Hebrew Name Authority Funnel
>> *Subject:* Re: [Heb-NACO] Romanization Question
>>
>> I wouldn't change our practice.
>> Just lazy.
>> Yossi
>>
>> On Nov 9, 2015 3:11 PM, "sshtuhl" <sshtuhl at upenn.edu
>> <mailto:sshtuhl at upenn.edu>> wrote:
>>
>> Hi all,
>> We had an interesting discussion about the Romanization of
>> foreign-loan words. Can we get to any agreement about how to
>> Romanize the word ??????
>> Thanks,
>> Smadar
>>
>> --
>> Smadar Shtuhl
>> Hebraica Library Specialist
>> University of Pennsylvania
>> Van Pelt-Dietrich Library Center
>> 3420 Walnut Street
>> Philadelphia, PA 19104-6206
>> F. 215-573-9610 <tel:215-573-9610>
>> sshtuhl at upenn.edu <mailto:sshtuhl at upenn.edu>
>>
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>
> --
> Smadar Shtuhl
> Hebraica Library Specialist
> University of Pennsylvania
> Van Pelt-Dietrich Library Center
> 3420 Walnut Street
> Philadelphia, PA 19104-6206
> F.215-573-9610 <tel:215-573-9610>
> sshtuhl at upenn.edu <mailto:sshtuhl at upenn.edu>
>
>
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--
Smadar Shtuhl
Hebraica Library Specialist
University of Pennsylvania
Van Pelt-Dietrich Library Center
3420 Walnut Street
Philadelphia, PA 19104-6206
F. 215-573-9610
sshtuhl at upenn.edu
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