[Heb-NACO] ha-rofe? (Physician)? ha-Rofe? Something else?

[Robert M. TALBOTT]

Hi Heidi and the rest:

Thanks for all your help. And also thanks to the rest of you out in
Heb-NACO land for your help.

If we're excluding "ha-rofe" because we can't tell what it is (my original
question), then maybe we should make a decision about titles in general,
and maybe ha-rofe specifically. My reasoning is that "ha-rofe" appears to
be integral to the name and we'd be remiss to leave it out.  Forbidden?
Amend!

I like the below

100 0  Jacob ben Joseph,|cha-rofeh,|d   -1851
400 1 Harofe, Yaʻaḳov ben Yosef,|d  -1851
400 0 Yaʻaḳov ben Yosef,|c ha-rofe| d  -1851
400 0 Jacob ben Joseph ben Jawb, |c ha-rofe |d -1851
400 0 Ya'akov,|cha-rofe,|d   -1851

The last one's from the piece in hand.

Cheers and thanks again

B




On Mon, Sep 15, 2014 at 1:38 PM, Heidi G Lerner <lerner at stanford.edu> wrote:

> Hi Neil,
>
> Thank you very much for your comments. I think that your recommendation to
> include the form found as is in the Encyclopedia of Jewish in the Islamic
> World, "Jacob ben Joseph,|cha-Rofeh,|d   -1851" is very valid, and after
> reviewing the situation with my supervisor who is also a NACO trainer we
> are both very comfortable in having this form added  as a xref.
>
> So Bob, here is how I think the NAR should look
>
> 100 0 Jacob ben Joseph,|d   -1851
> 400 0  Jacob ben Joseph,|cha-Rofeh,|d   -1851
> 400 0 Harofe, Yaʻaḳov ben Yosef,|d  -1851
> 400 0 Yaʻaḳov ben Yosef,|d  1851
> 400 0 Jacob ben Joseph ben Jawb,|d -1851
>
> and of course a 670 for the Encycloepdia of the Jews in Islamic Countries
> and a revision of the 670 for the Encyclopedia Judaica; and please request
> BFM
>
> Let me know if you have further questions or comments.
>
> Thanks, Heidi
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
> *From: *"Neil Manel Frau-Cortes" <nfrau at umd.edu>
> *To: *"Hebrew Name Authority Funnel" <heb-naco at lists.osu.edu>
> *Sent: *Monday, September 15, 2014 5:04:09 AM
> *Subject: *Re: [Heb-NACO] ha-rofe? (Physician)? ha-Rofe? Something else?
>
> I really don’t agree. It is fine if you don’t want it as the main entry.
> However, if the Encyclopedia of Jews in the Islamic World and other sources
> call him ha-Rofe (capitals or not), what do you gain by suppressing it all
> together from the cross-references? Your rules will be well served, your
> users perhaps not so much.
>
>
>
>
>
> *Neil M. Frau-Cortes, Ph.D.*
>
> Judaica, Hebraica and Metadata Cataloger
>
> McKeldin Library
>
> University of Maryland
> College Park, MD 20742
> Phone (301) 405-9337
>
> nfrau at umd.edu
>
>
>
> *From:* Heb-naco [mailto:heb-naco-bounces at lists.osu.edu] *On Behalf Of *Heidi
> G Lerner
> *Sent:* Friday, September 12, 2014 5:05 PM
> *To:* Hebrew Name Authority Funnel
> *Subject:* Re: [Heb-NACO] ha-rofe? (Physician)? ha-Rofe? Something else?
>
>
>
> the usage in ספר שמן טוב = is "בכר" according to OCLC. So actually the
> romanization would be b.k. in the statement of responsibility
>
> The patronymic particle "b." is always given in full when used in a
> personal-name heading. Care must always be taken to distinguish the
> patronymic particle "b." from "B." as an abbreviation.
>
> So the 4th cross reference should be:
>
>
>
> Jacob ben Joseph,|cha-Rofeh,|d   -1851
>
>
>
> and the 5th xref should be:
>
> Harofe, Yaʻaḳov ben Yosef,|d  -1851
>
>
>
> ha-rofe should not be added to these xrefs
>
>
>
> Thanks, Heidi
>
>
>
> *From: *"Rachel Simon" <rsimon at Princeton.EDU>
> *To: *"Hebrew Name Authority Funnel" <heb-naco at lists.osu.edu>,
> rtalbott at library.berkeley.edu
> *Sent: *Friday, September 12, 2014 1:17:23 PM
> *Subject: *Re: [Heb-NACO] ha-rofe? (Physician)? ha-Rofe? Something else?
>
>
>
> Shouldn't this
>      Yaʻaḳov Bekhar Yosef, ǂc ha-rofe
> really be
>     Yaʻaḳov b.k. ha-R. Yosef, ǂc ha-rofe
>
>
>
>
> Rachel
> ________________________________________
> From: Heb-naco [heb-naco-bounces at lists.osu.edu] on behalf of Heidi G
> Lerner [lerner at stanford.edu]
> Sent: Friday, September 12, 2014 3:50 PM
> To: rtalbott at library.berkeley.edu; Hebrew Name Authority Funnel
> Subject: Re: [Heb-NACO] ha-rofe? (Physician)? ha-Rofe? Something else?
>
>
>
> Hi Bob,
> First of all this heading was established incorrectly under AACR2 and also
> the 2nd 670 was not formulated correctly. We only use the romanized form if
> the name found in the EJ If the name is found as the heading for an article
> about the person. In this case the romanized form is found in v.12, page
> 899. This information should be recorded in the 2nd 670 and the
> systematically romanized Hebrew form of the name found in the resource
> cited in the first 670 should be the heading, with the EJ form being the
> xref.
> That being said, as part of your recoding the NAR the first thing I would
> do is look at the Hebrew form and determine how to correctly formulate
> according to RDA.
>
>
>
> What you have currently is:
>
>
>
> Yaʻaḳov Bekhar Yosef, ǂc ha-rofe
>
>
>
> So now we look at your original question to determine if "ha-rofe" is a
> title or not.
>
>
>
> I would go first go to RDA 9.4.1.1 which tells us that
> "
> Title of the person▼<
> http://access.rdatoolkit.org/document.php?id=rdagloss&target=rdagloss-1956#rdagloss-1956>
> is a word or phrase indicative of royalty, nobility, or ecclesiastical rank
> or office, a term of address for a person of religious vocation, or another
> term indicative of rank, honour, or office.
> Title of the person excludes terms of address that simply indicate gender
> or marital status (e.g., Mr., Mrs.)."
>
>
>
> So we need to decide if "ha-rofe" is indicative or rank,honour or office
> as prescribed in 9.4.1.9.
>
>
>
> "Record other titles of the person indicative of rank, honour, or office
> if the terms appear with the name. Record the term in the language in which
> it was conferred or in the language used in the country in which the person
> resides."
>
>
>
> I checked to see if "ha-rofe" is used as a designation of rank, office or
> honour. I looked in the Jewish Encyclpoedia (1904) and it did not appear in
> the article "Title of Honor."
>
>
>
>
> I looked him up in the Encylcopedia of Jews in the Islamic World and in
> article with his name at the head (Jacob ben Joseph ha-Rofeh) says that he
> was a dayan and rabbinic scholar in Baghdad but nothing about being a
> doctor.   He died Oct. 5. 1851.
>
>
>
> Up through the Middle Ages Jews generally used forenames but with
> different types of designations appended to them (place of birth,
> occupation), etc. and surnames did to really come into use in until the
> 18th and 19th centuries. Certainly "ha-rofe" [the doctor] was an occupation
> that Jews engaged in for centuries.
>
>
>
> I personally do not consider "ha-rofe" a surname and we know that Yaʻaḳov
> Bekhar Yosef was not a doctor.
>
>
>
> So, my thought is to establish him as:
> Jacob ben Joseph,|d   -1851 (based on the romanized form found in the
> Encyclopedia of Jews in the Islamic World): I have chosen this form since
> we are in the process of recoding and reevaluating the heading, thus we
> should refer to he Encyclopedia of Jews in the Islamic World as pe
> LC-PCC-PS 9.2.2.5.3; although ha-Rofe is part of the name in the article
> about him, it is very difficult to consider or decide if ha-Rofe is a term
> indicative of rank, honor or office, an addition those types of terms are
> not core elements; it is not an occupation since we know he was not a doctor
>
>
>
>
> So, my thought is to establish him as:
> Jacob ben Joseph,|d   -1851
>
>
>
> I would hame cross-references from:
>
>
>
> 400 1 Harofeh, Jacob ben Joseph,|d    -1851
> 400Yosef, Yaʻakov Bekhar,|d  -1851
> 400 0 Jacob ben Joseph ben Jawb ,|d  -1851
> 400 0 Yaʻaḳov Bekhar Yosef,|d  -1851
> 400 1 Harofe, Yaʻaḳov Bekhar Yosef,|d  -1851
>
>
>
> I am eager to hear others' thoughts.
>
>
>
> Thanks, Heidi
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: "Robert M. TALBOTT" <rtalbott at library.berkeley.edu>
> To: "Hebrew Name Authority Funnel" <heb-naco at lists.service.ohio-state.edu>
> Sent: Friday, September 12, 2014 10:55:22 AM
> Subject: [Heb-NACO] ha-rofe? (Physician)? ha-Rofe? Something else?
>
>
>
> Hi folks:
>
>
>
> I have a question about capitalization treating an after-name title.  I'd
> like to get a bit of feedback before stepping off into the abyss.
>
>
>
> Anyhow:
>
>
>
> I'd like to upgrade to RDA the record with the heading Jacob ben Joseph
> ben Jawb, $c ha-rofe (OCLC AR 475823), but sadly the record is one
> requiring review before using in an RDA record. Predictably, the rub is how
> to treat "ha-Rofe." I suppose one could read it as the equivalent of
> something like "$c (Physician)" though on the surface I'd favor reading it
> as a title of some sort.  But since the type of title sways the
> capitalization rules (RDA A.31), what sort of a title is it?  One might
> very well assume it's a professional title (RDA A.11.5.4), resulting in "$c
> ha-rofe. " If one squints hard enough, I suppose one of the other options
> could work, but that's a stretch in my estimation when one looks at the
> options available in RDA A.11.5.
>
>
>
> My concern here is that I may be missing something obvious or otherwise.
>  Please advise.
>
>
>
> Bob
> --
>
>
>
> Bob Talbott
>
>
>
> Principal cataloger/Hebraica cataloger
>
>
>
> UC Berkeley
>
>
>
> 250 Moffitt
>
>
>
> Berkeley, CA 94720
>
>
>
>
> We're happy as fish,
> as gorgeous as geese,
> and wonderfully clean in the morning.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> Heidi G. Lerner
> Metadata Librarian for Hebraica and Judaica
> Metadata Development Unit
> Stanford University Libraries
> Stanford, CA 94305-6004
> e-mail: lerner at stanford.edu
> ph: 650-725-9953
> fax: 650-725-1120
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Heb-naco mailing list
> Heb-naco at lists.osu.edu
> https://lists.osu.edu/mailman/listinfo/heb-naco
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Heidi G. Lerner
> Metadata Librarian for Hebraica and Judaica
> Metadata Development Unit
> Stanford University Libraries
> Stanford, CA 94305-6004
> e-mail: lerner at stanford.edu
> ph: 650-725-9953
> fax: 650-725-1120
>
> _______________________________________________
> Heb-naco mailing list
> Heb-naco at lists.osu.edu
> https://lists.osu.edu/mailman/listinfo/heb-naco
>
>
>
> --
> Heidi G. Lerner
> Metadata Librarian for Hebraica and Judaica
> Metadata Development Unit
> Stanford University Libraries
> Stanford, CA 94305-6004
> e-mail: lerner at stanford.edu
> ph: 650-725-9953
> fax: 650-725-1120
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Heb-naco mailing list
> Heb-naco at lists.osu.edu
> https://lists.osu.edu/mailman/listinfo/heb-naco
>
>


-- 

Bob Talbott

Principal cataloger/Hebraica cataloger

UC Berkeley

250 Moffitt

Berkeley, CA 94720


We're happy as fish,
as gorgeous as geese,
and wonderfully clean in the morning.
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