[Heb-NACO] ha-rofe? (Physician)? ha-Rofe? Something else?

Mon Sep 15 18:09:22 EDT 2014

Hi, Bob,

I’ve seen heh’s being dropped at the end of words, e.g., Moshe. I’ve never seen an h added when there is no heh. As I said, it’s spelled without the h in the first line of the article.
Seems suspicious to me.
Barry

From: Heb-naco [mailto:heb-naco-bounces at lists.osu.edu] On Behalf Of Robert M. TALBOTT
Sent: September 15, 2014 6:00 PM
To: Hebrew Name Authority Funnel
Subject: Re: [Heb-NACO] ha-rofe? (Physician)? ha-Rofe? Something else?

Hi Barry:

The Jews in the Islamic World calls him "Jacob ben Joseph ha-Rofeh."  Is it an error?  Maybe, maybe not, it depends on the JIW romanization stadards, which are a total mystery to me at this time.

Bob

On Mon, Sep 15, 2014 at 2:22 PM, Barry Walfish <barry.walfish at utoronto.ca<mailto:barry.walfish at utoronto.ca>> wrote:
Dear All,

There seems to be a typo in that heading. It should be ha-Rofe without the h. In the first line of the article that’s the way it is.

Barry
From: Heb-naco [mailto:heb-naco-bounces at lists.osu.edu<mailto:heb-naco-bounces at lists.osu.edu>] On Behalf Of Heidi G Lerner
Sent: September 15, 2014 4:38 PM
To: Hebrew Name Authority Funnel
Subject: Re: [Heb-NACO] ha-rofe? (Physician)? ha-Rofe? Something else?

Hi Neil,

Thank you very much for your comments. I think that your recommendation to include the form found as is in the Encyclopedia of Jewish in the Islamic World, "Jacob ben Joseph,|cha-Rofeh,|d   -1851" is very valid, and after reviewing the situation with my supervisor who is also a NACO trainer we are both very comfortable in having this form added  as a xref.

So Bob, here is how I think the NAR should look

100 0 Jacob ben Joseph,|d   -1851
400 0  Jacob ben Joseph,|cha-Rofeh,|d   -1851
400 0 Harofe, Yaʻaḳov ben Yosef,|d  -1851
400 0 Yaʻaḳov ben Yosef,|d  1851
400 0 Jacob ben Joseph ben Jawb,|d -1851

and of course a 670 for the Encycloepdia of the Jews in Islamic Countries and a revision of the 670 for the Encyclopedia Judaica; and please request BFM

Let me know if you have further questions or comments.

Thanks, Heidi

________________________________
From: "Neil Manel Frau-Cortes" <nfrau at umd.edu<mailto:nfrau at umd.edu>>
To: "Hebrew Name Authority Funnel" <heb-naco at lists.osu.edu<mailto:heb-naco at lists.osu.edu>>
Sent: Monday, September 15, 2014 5:04:09 AM
Subject: Re: [Heb-NACO] ha-rofe? (Physician)? ha-Rofe? Something else?

I really don’t agree. It is fine if you don’t want it as the main entry. However, if the Encyclopedia of Jews in the Islamic World and other sources call him ha-Rofe (capitals or not), what do you gain by suppressing it all together from the cross-references? Your rules will be well served, your users perhaps not so much.

Neil M. Frau-Cortes, Ph.D.

Judaica, Hebraica and Metadata Cataloger
McKeldin Library
University of Maryland
College Park, MD 20742
Phone (301) 405-9337
nfrau at umd.edu<http://nfrau@umd.edu>

From: Heb-naco [mailto:heb-naco-bounces at lists.osu.edu] On Behalf Of Heidi G Lerner
Sent: Friday, September 12, 2014 5:05 PM
To: Hebrew Name Authority Funnel
Subject: Re: [Heb-NACO] ha-rofe? (Physician)? ha-Rofe? Something else?

the usage in ספר שמן טוב = is "בכר" according to OCLC. So actually the romanization would be b.k. in the statement of responsibility
The patronymic particle "b." is always given in full when used in a personal-name heading. Care must always be taken to distinguish the patronymic particle "b." from "B." as an abbreviation.
So the 4th cross reference should be:

Jacob ben Joseph,|cha-Rofeh,|d   -1851

and the 5th xref should be:
Harofe, Yaʻaḳov ben Yosef,|d  -1851

ha-rofe should not be added to these xrefs

Thanks, Heidi

From: "Rachel Simon" <rsimon at Princeton.EDU<mailto:rsimon at Princeton.EDU>>
To: "Hebrew Name Authority Funnel" <heb-naco at lists.osu.edu<mailto:heb-naco at lists.osu.edu>>, rtalbott at library.berkeley.edu<mailto:rtalbott at library.berkeley.edu>
Sent: Friday, September 12, 2014 1:17:23 PM
Subject: Re: [Heb-NACO] ha-rofe? (Physician)? ha-Rofe? Something else?

Shouldn't this
     Yaʻaḳov Bekhar Yosef, ǂc ha-rofe
really be
    Yaʻaḳov b.k. ha-R. Yosef, ǂc ha-rofe

Rachel
________________________________________
From: Heb-naco [heb-naco-bounces at lists.osu.edu<mailto:heb-naco-bounces at lists.osu.edu>] on behalf of Heidi G Lerner [lerner at stanford.edu<mailto:lerner at stanford.edu>]
Sent: Friday, September 12, 2014 3:50 PM
To: rtalbott at library.berkeley.edu<mailto:rtalbott at library.berkeley.edu>; Hebrew Name Authority Funnel
Subject: Re: [Heb-NACO] ha-rofe? (Physician)? ha-Rofe? Something else?

Hi Bob,
First of all this heading was established incorrectly under AACR2 and also the 2nd 670 was not formulated correctly. We only use the romanized form if the name found in the EJ If the name is found as the heading for an article about the person. In this case the romanized form is found in v.12, page 899. This information should be recorded in the 2nd 670 and the systematically romanized Hebrew form of the name found in the resource cited in the first 670 should be the heading, with the EJ form being the xref.
That being said, as part of your recoding the NAR the first thing I would do is look at the Hebrew form and determine how to correctly formulate according to RDA.

What you have currently is:

Yaʻaḳov Bekhar Yosef, ǂc ha-rofe

So now we look at your original question to determine if "ha-rofe" is a title or not.

I would go first go to RDA 9.4.1.1 which tells us that
"
Title of the person▼<http://access.rdatoolkit.org/document.php?id=rdagloss&target=rdagloss-1956#rdagloss-1956> is a word or phrase indicative of royalty, nobility, or ecclesiastical rank or office, a term of address for a person of religious vocation, or another term indicative of rank, honour, or office.
Title of the person excludes terms of address that simply indicate gender or marital status (e.g., Mr., Mrs.)."

So we need to decide if "ha-rofe" is indicative or rank,honour or office as prescribed in 9.4.1.9.

"Record other titles of the person indicative of rank, honour, or office if the terms appear with the name. Record the term in the language in which it was conferred or in the language used in the country in which the person resides."

I checked to see if "ha-rofe" is used as a designation of rank, office or honour. I looked in the Jewish Encyclpoedia (1904) and it did not appear in the article "Title of Honor."

I looked him up in the Encylcopedia of Jews in the Islamic World and in article with his name at the head (Jacob ben Joseph ha-Rofeh) says that he was a dayan and rabbinic scholar in Baghdad but nothing about being a doctor.   He died Oct. 5. 1851.

Up through the Middle Ages Jews generally used forenames but with different types of designations appended to them (place of birth, occupation), etc. and surnames did to really come into use in until the 18th and 19th centuries. Certainly "ha-rofe" [the doctor] was an occupation that Jews engaged in for centuries.

I personally do not consider "ha-rofe" a surname and we know that Yaʻaḳov Bekhar Yosef was not a doctor.

So, my thought is to establish him as:
Jacob ben Joseph,|d   -1851 (based on the romanized form found in the Encyclopedia of Jews in the Islamic World): I have chosen this form since we are in the process of recoding and reevaluating the heading, thus we should refer to he Encyclopedia of Jews in the Islamic World as pe LC-PCC-PS 9.2.2.5.3; although ha-Rofe is part of the name in the article about him, it is very difficult to consider or decide if ha-Rofe is a term indicative of rank, honor or office, an addition those types of terms are not core elements; it is not an occupation since we know he was not a doctor

So, my thought is to establish him as:
Jacob ben Joseph,|d   -1851

I would hame cross-references from:

400 1 Harofeh, Jacob ben Joseph,|d    -1851
400Yosef, Yaʻakov Bekhar,|d  -1851
400 0 Jacob ben Joseph ben Jawb ,|d  -1851
400 0 Yaʻaḳov Bekhar Yosef,|d  -1851
400 1 Harofe, Yaʻaḳov Bekhar Yosef,|d  -1851

I am eager to hear others' thoughts.

Thanks, Heidi

________________________________
From: "Robert M. TALBOTT" <rtalbott at library.berkeley.edu<mailto:rtalbott at library.berkeley.edu>>
To: "Hebrew Name Authority Funnel" <heb-naco at lists.service.ohio-state.edu<mailto:heb-naco at lists.service.ohio-state.edu>>
Sent: Friday, September 12, 2014 10:55:22 AM
Subject: [Heb-NACO] ha-rofe? (Physician)? ha-Rofe? Something else?

Hi folks:

I have a question about capitalization treating an after-name title.  I'd like to get a bit of feedback before stepping off into the abyss.

Anyhow:

I'd like to upgrade to RDA the record with the heading Jacob ben Joseph ben Jawb, $c ha-rofe (OCLC AR 475823), but sadly the record is one requiring review before using in an RDA record. Predictably, the rub is how to treat "ha-Rofe." I suppose one could read it as the equivalent of something like "$c (Physician)" though on the surface I'd favor reading it as a title of some sort.  But since the type of title sways the capitalization rules (RDA A.31), what sort of a title is it?  One might very well assume it's a professional title (RDA A.11.5.4), resulting in "$c ha-rofe. " If one squints hard enough, I suppose one of the other options could work, but that's a stretch in my estimation when one looks at the options available in RDA A.11.5.

My concern here is that I may be missing something obvious or otherwise.  Please advise.

Bob
--

Bob Talbott

Principal cataloger/Hebraica cataloger

UC Berkeley

250 Moffitt

Berkeley, CA 94720

We're happy as fish,
as gorgeous as geese,
and wonderfully clean in the morning.

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Heidi G. Lerner
Metadata Librarian for Hebraica and Judaica
Metadata Development Unit
Stanford University Libraries
Stanford, CA 94305-6004
e-mail: lerner at stanford.edu<mailto:lerner at stanford.edu>
ph: 650-725-9953
fax: 650-725-1120

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--
Heidi G. Lerner
Metadata Librarian for Hebraica and Judaica
Metadata Development Unit
Stanford University Libraries
Stanford, CA 94305-6004
e-mail: lerner at stanford.edu<mailto:lerner at stanford.edu>
ph: 650-725-9953
fax: 650-725-1120

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Heb-naco at lists.osu.edu<mailto:Heb-naco at lists.osu.edu>
https://lists.osu.edu/mailman/listinfo/heb-naco

--
Heidi G. Lerner
Metadata Librarian for Hebraica and Judaica
Metadata Development Unit
Stanford University Libraries
Stanford, CA 94305-6004
e-mail: lerner at stanford.edu<mailto:lerner at stanford.edu>
ph: 650-725-9953
fax: 650-725-1120

_______________________________________________
Heb-naco mailing list
Heb-naco at lists.osu.edu<mailto:Heb-naco at lists.osu.edu>
https://lists.osu.edu/mailman/listinfo/heb-naco

--

Bob Talbott

Principal cataloger/Hebraica cataloger

UC Berkeley

250 Moffitt

Berkeley, CA 94720

We're happy as fish,

as gorgeous as geese,

and wonderfully clean in the morning.
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