[Vwoolf] Leonardo teria aprovado . . .
Stuart N. Clarke
stuart.n.clarke at btinternet.com
Tue Sep 17 07:24:08 EDT 2013
If getting up with the hens has nothing to do with social class in Portugal, so be it. However, it seems to in (parts of?) Spain:
“Phrases from an upper-middle-class, learned and poetic register such as Woolf’s cannot be translated into colloquial expressions from rural non-written varieties of Galician, however common or popular these may be. Therefore ... ‘But you'll have to be up with the lark’ triggers connotations as to the characters’ social context that are totally different from those conveyed by a phrase like ‘erguese coas galiñas / pitas’.”
Manuela Palacios González, "Some Considerations on the Translation of Virginia Woolf's 'To the Lighthouse' into Galician" in "Some Sundry Wits Gathered Together", ed. S. G. FERNANDEZ-CORUGEDO (Universidade da Coruña: Servicio de Publicacións, 1997), p. 180
My experience in Portugal led me to wish that the cockerels never got up at all, as they seemed to go on crowing all day!
Stuart
From: Erica Mascarenhas
Sent: Tuesday, September 17, 2013 11:52 AM
To: Stuart N. Clarke
Cc: vwoolf at lists.service.ohio-state.edu
Subject: Re: [Vwoolf] Leonardo teria aprovado . . .
Hello everyone,
I rarely participate in this list but I just had to this time. I have an idea as to why the translation may seem odd to you. As far as I'm aware, "be up with the lark" is an idiom in English. On the other hand, I've never heard it in European Portuguese, with the sole exception of literal translations from English. I assume translators were simply trying to find an equivalent idiom, such as "get up with the hens" (it's got nothing to do with social class, it's simply a reference to the fact that hens get up early in the morning, and you certainly don't need to have hens living in your own backyard to say that).
Of course, this brings us back to the old question of how idioms should be translated. Should they be translated literally or changed to an idiom that would sound more natural to readers?
2013/9/1 Stuart N. Clarke <stuart.n.clarke at btinternet.com>
Oscar Mendes (1960):
"- Sim, sem dúvida, se for tempo bom amanhã - disse a Sra Ramsay. Mas você terá de estar de pé com a cotovia - acrescentou."
Luiza Lobo (1982):
"É claro que amanhã fará um dia bonito – disse a Sra Ramsay. - Mas vocês terão que madrugar - acrescentou."
Mário Cláudio (1985):
"- Sim, é claro, se amanhã estiver bom - disse Mrs Ramsay -, mas vais ter de te levantar com as galinhas - acrescentou."
Lucília Rodrigues (1992):
"- Sim, claro, se o tempo amanhã estiver bom - disse Mrs. Ramsay. - Mas vais ter de te levantar bem cedinho - acrescentou."
I would have thought that the Mendes was the best, but --
“Que scais-je?”
Stuart
From: Iara Verocai
Sent: Sunday, September 01, 2013 4:23 PM
To: Stuart N. Clarke ; vwoolf at lists.service.ohio-state.edu
Subject: Re: [Vwoolf] Leonardo teria aprovado . . .
Stuart,
“Tradutore, traditore”, as the Italiens say. If with difficult in the beginning, it worth running to dictionaries and grammar books. The rhythm and sonority of Virginia’s prose may be lost, even in the best translation.
There are several Portuguese versions of her books, by different translators, from Portugal and Brazil. I guess the lines you quote in your message are from Portugal. I´m far from by books and can’t check it now.
For me, to translate “up with the lark” and keep the metaphor, it would be better “'mas você vai ter que madrugar”.
Iara
From: Stuart N. Clarke
Sent: Saturday, August 31, 2013 8:54 AM
To: vwoolf at lists.service.ohio-state.edu
Subject: [Vwoolf] Leonardo teria aprovado . . .
Pessoalmente, I never believe in reading foreign books in the original language – I lose so much if it’s *not* in translation! However, for those who can, they should.
'"Yes, of course, if it's fine tomorrow," said Mrs. Ramsay. "But you'll have to be up with the lark," she added.'
"- Sim, é claro, se amanhã estiver bon - disse Mrs Ramsay -, mas vais ter de te levantar com as galinhas - acrescentou."
"Yes, of course, if tomorrow is fine," said Mrs. Ramsay, "but you're going to have to get up with the hens," she added.
Suddenly, we've slipped down a few social classes!
I’ve also looked at another couple of Portuguese translations: one said that James would have to be up very early and the other said he'd have to be up with the dawn.
It is fascinating the difficulty translators have with "up with the lark" -- of course, it seems so innocuous to us. It's metaphorical and immediately introduces us to Mrs R's habit of exaggerating.
Stuart
From: Iara Verocai
Sent: Saturday, August 31, 2013 12:38 PM
To: Stuart N. Clarke ; vwoolf at lists.service.ohio-state.edu
Subject: Re: [Vwoolf] Leonard would have approved . . . (2)
Stuart with his list reminded me that I read Bell´s biography in 1889, in a rather good translation to Portuguese. I´d been reading Virginia since the late sixties: Jacob´s Room and To the Lighthouse bought in Penguin editions. I had been atracted to her by Albee´s play. I read several olhers issued along the seventies and eighties, new Portuguese editions issued in Brazil. While I read Bell, however, I got convinced that I should keep reading her books in English, for a new reading after my dicover of how her books were so inspired by her difficult yet enriching life. Also, I began to buy whatever I found by and about her. Voyages to Great Britain and the US together with the Internet facilities have made it easy to gather a nice Virginiana. For almost 15 year I´ve been following this list, a quiet common reader learning about her work from the perspective and knowledge of list members. Thank you all!
Iara
From: Stuart N. Clarke
Sent: Friday, August 30, 2013 4:11 AM
To: vwoolf at lists.service.ohio-state.edu
Subject: [Vwoolf] Leonard would have approved . . . (2)
Not 100% accurate. E.g. not listed below: fancy leaving “The Years” (my only prize book from school) in a taxi in North Bondi (Sydney) c. 1 April 1972! (And why do I know that date? Because it was about the time I moved flat, and just at the moment I have to supply info. to the UK Pension Service to persuade them to increase my Old Age Pension. “Tell us the exact period(s) you lived in Australia, Canada or New Zealand from age 16 and your addresses. If you need more space ...” I certainly do.)
VIRGINIA WOOLF BOOKS ACQUIRED, up to July 1978
(in acquisition date order)
"The Waves"
Penguin Books
1951 (1966 imp.)
NB:(W279) Penguin Modern Classic 808
Kirkpatrick Bibliog:Kp4A16e
OBTAINED:1966.08.19
"Jacob's Room"
Penguin Books
1965
NB:(W026) Penguin Modern Classic 2259
Kirkpatrick Bibliog:Kp4A6f
OBTAINED:1966.09.03
"The Death of the Moth - and other essays"
Penguin Books
1961 (1965 imp.)
NB:(W500) Penguin Modern Classic 1644 (VWQb) (KpA13) LuB39
Kirkpatrick Bibliog:Kp4A27c
OBTAINED:1966.12.29
"The Common Reader"
The Hogarth Press (Uniform Ed)
1929 ("New Edition")
NB:(W081) ffep missing.
Kirkpatrick Bibliog:Kp4A8c
OBTAINED:1967.02.04
"Mrs. Dalloway"
Penguin Books
1964 (1967 imp.)
NB:(W082) Penguin Modern Classic 2159
Kirkpatrick Bibliog:Kp4A9h
OBTAINED:1967.04.27
"A Room of One's Own"
Harmondsworth, Middx: Penguin Books
1963 (1967 imp.)
NB:(W215) Penguin Modern Classic 481
Kirkpatrick Bibliog:Kp4A12f
OBTAINED:1968.01.19
"Orlando: A Biography"
Penguin Books
1963 (1967 imp.)
NB:(W185) Penguin Modern Classic 381
Kirkpatrick Bibliog:Kp4A11h
OBTAINED:1968.01.30
"A Room of One's Own"
Penguin Books
1945
NB:(W215) Vol.481
Kirkpatrick Bibliog:Kp4A12e
OBTAINED:1968.05.10
"The Voyage Out"
Harcourt, Brace & World, Inc.
(1968)
NB:(W213) Harvest Book HB151 Bought in the US
Kirkpatrick Bibliog:Kp4A1f
OBTAINED:1969.07.30
"The Second Common Reader"
Harcourt, Brace & World, Inc.
Dec 1966 (1956)
NB:(W315) Harvest Book HB24 Bought in the US
Kirkpatrick Bibliog:Kp4A18f
OBTAINED:1969.07.30
"Flush"
Harcourt, Brace & World, Inc.
(1966)
NB:(W334) Harbrace Paperback Library HPL12 Bought in the US
Kirkpatrick Bibliog:Kp4A19e
OBTAINED:1969.08.13
"A Writer's Diary - Being Extracts from the Diary of Virginia Woolf"
The New American Library
1968
NB:Signet Classic CY424 LuB59 Bought in the US
Kirkpatrick Bibliog:Kp4A31bb
OBTAINED:1969.08.13
"A Haunted House - and Other Short Stories"
Harcourt, Brace & World, Inc.
Aug 1967 (1974)
NB:(W507) (W001) (W007) (W008) (W017) Harvest Book HB105 (VWQb) (KpA02) (KpA03) (W155) LuB46 Bought in the US
Kirkpatrick Bibliog:Kp4A28d
OBTAINED:1969.09.08
"Three Guineas"
Harcourt, Brace & World, Inc.
(1963)
NB:(W440) Harbinger Book H021 Bought in the US
Kirkpatrick Bibliog:Kp4A23d
OBTAINED:1969.09.09
"Between the Acts"
The Hogarth Press
1969 (8th imp.)
NB:(W488) (VWQb) LuB37 dj
Kirkpatrick Bibliog:Kp4A26c
OBTAINED:1969.10.25
"Nurse Lugton's Golden Thimble"
The Hogarth Press
1966
NB: LuB70 dj Kirkpatrick Bibliog:Kp4C376 NLG
Kirkpatrick Bibliog:Kp4A38a
OBTAINED:1969.11.11
"Night and Day"
Penguin Books
1969
NB:(W214)
Kirkpatrick Bibliog:Kp4A4e
OBTAINED:1969.11.27
"The Moment - and Other Essays"
The Hogarth Press
1964 (imp. of 1952 ed.)
NB:(Kirkpatrick Bibliog:Kp4A14) (Kirkpatrick Bibliog:Kp4A21) (W245) LuB52 dj
Kirkpatrick Bibliog:Kp4A29c
OBTAINED:1970.04.18
"The Voyage Out"
Penguin Books
1970
NB:(W213)
Kirkpatrick Bibliog:Kp4A1g
OBTAINED:1970.08.07
"To the Lighthouse"
Penguin Books
1964 (1965 imp.)
NB:(W154) Penguin Modern Classic 2165
Kirkpatrick Bibliog:Kp4A10f
OBTAINED:1970.12.31
"Contemporary Writers"
The Hogarth Press
1965
NB:dj
Kirkpatrick Bibliog:Kp4A35a
OBTAINED:1971.10.26
"Roger Fry: A Biography"
The Hogarth Press
1969, 3rd* imp. (1940)
NB:(W475) (VWQb) dj *Actually 4th
Kirkpatrick Bibliog:Kp4A25a
OBTAINED:1971.11.16
"Granite and Rainbow - Essays"
The Hogarth Press
1960 (2nd imp.)
NB: LuB63 dj
Kirkpatrick Bibliog:Kp4A34a
OBTAINED:1971.11.16
"Letters"
The Hogarth Press & Chatto and Windus
1969, 2nd imp. (1956)
NB: LuB61 dj
Kirkpatrick Bibliog:Kp4A32a
OBTAINED:1972.05.17
"Jacob's Room"
Penguin Books
1965 (1968 imp.)
NB:(W026) Penguin Modern Classic 2259
Kirkpatrick Bibliog:Kp4A6f
OBTAINED:1972.08.14
"Virginia Woolf: A Biography - Volume One: Virginia Stephen 1882-1912"
The Hogarth Press
1972
NB:dj
Kirkpatrick Bibliog:Kp4B15a
OBTAINED:1972.10.12
"Virginia Woolf: A Biography - Volume Two: Mrs Woolf 1912-1941"
The Hogarth Press
1972
NB:dj
Kirkpatrick Bibliog:Kp4B16
OBTAINED:1972.12.06
"The Common Reader"
Harcourt, Brace & World, Inc.
(1955)
NB:(W082) Harvest Book HB10
Kirkpatrick Bibliog:Kp4A8e
OBTAINED:1973.05.07
"Mrs Dalloway's Party: A Short Story Sequence"
The Hogarth Press
1973
NB:dj
Kirkpatrick Bibliog:Kp4A42a
OBTAINED:1973.08.22
"Between the Acts"
Penguin Books
1953 (1972 imp.)
NB:(W488) (VWQb) LuB37
Kirkpatrick Bibliog:Kp4A26d
OBTAINED:1973.11.12
"A Haunted House - and other stories"
Penguin Books
1973 (1973 reprint)
NB:(W507) (W001) (W007) (W008) (W017) (VWQb) (KpA02) (KpA03) (W155) LuB46
Kirkpatrick Bibliog:Kp4A28e
OBTAINED:1974.07.23
"The Flight of the Mind - The Letters of Virginia Woolf, Volume 1: 1888-1912 (Virginia Stephen)"
The Hogarth Press
1975
NB:dj
Kirkpatrick Bibliog:Kp4A44a
OBTAINED:1975.10.01
"Mrs. Dalloway"
Chatto & Windus (The New Phoenix Library)
3rd imp., 1950
NB:(W082)
Kirkpatrick Bibliog:Kp4A9f
OBTAINED:1976.06.18
"Moments of Being: Unpublished Autobiographical Writings"
The University Press, Sussex
1976
NB:dj
Kirkpatrick Bibliog:Kp4A45a
OBTAINED:1976.07.22
"The Question of Things Happening - The Letters of Virginia Woolf, Volume 2: 1912-1922"
The Hogarth Press
1976
NB:dj
Kirkpatrick Bibliog:Kp4A47a
OBTAINED:1976.11.22
"Mrs. Dalloway"
Random House (The Modern Library, Vol. 217, binding style 8)
1928 (1939? reprint*)
NB:(W082) Introduction by Virginia Woolf: Kirkpatrick Bibliog:Kp4B8 *Signed by a previous owner in 1943. dj not obtained
Kirkpatrick Bibliog:Kp4A9c
OBTAINED:1976.12.01
"The Years"
The Hogarth Press
1972, 6th imp. (1940)
NB:(W423)
Kirkpatrick Bibliog:Kp4A22c
OBTAINED:1977.02.08
"The Waves: The two holograph drafts"
The Hogarth Press
1976
NB:(W279) dj
Kirkpatrick Bibliog:Kp4A16h
OBTAINED:1977.03.11
"Contemporary Writers"
Harcourt Brace Jovanovich
1976
NB:Harvest Book HB347
Kirkpatrick Bibliog:Kp4A35c
OBTAINED:1977.03.26
"Jacob's Room"
The Hogarth Press
1976, 12th imp. (1945)
NB:(W026)
Kirkpatrick Bibliog:Kp4A6d
OBTAINED:1977.05.05
"A Writer's Diary - Being Extracts from the Diary of Virginia Woolf"
The Hogarth Press
1975, 7th imp. (1954)
NB: LuB59 dj
Kirkpatrick Bibliog:Kp4A31a
OBTAINED:1977.05.05
Freshwater: A Comedy"
The Hogarth Press
1976
NB:dj
Kirkpatrick Bibliog:Kp4A46b
OBTAINED:1977.05.05
"The Voyage Out"
The Hogarth Press
1975, 10th imp. (1929)
NB:(W213)
Kirkpatrick Bibliog:Kp4A1e
OBTAINED:1977.05.09
"Night and Day"
The Hogarth Press
1971 (9th imp.)
NB:(W214)
Kirkpatrick Bibliog:Kp4A4c
OBTAINED:1977.05.09
"To the Lighthouse"
The Hogarth Press
1974 (Uniform ed., 1930)
NB:(W154) dj - inside front flap: blurb same as on previous (1967) reprint
Kirkpatrick Bibliog:Kp4A10c
OBTAINED:1977.05.09
"A Room of One's Own"
The Hogarth Press (Uniform Edition)
1930 (15th imp. 1974)
NB:(W215) dj
Kirkpatrick Bibliog:Kp4A12d
OBTAINED:1977.05.09
"A Haunted House - and Other Short Stories"
The Hogarth Press
(1953) 1973 imp.
NB:(W507) (W001) (W007) (W008) (W017) VWQb (KpA02) (KpA03) (W155) LuB46 dj
Kirkpatrick Bibliog:Kp4A28c
OBTAINED:1977.05.09
"The Waves"
The Hogarth Press
'12th imp. 1976' (1943)
NB:(W279) dj
Kirkpatrick Bibliog:Kp4A16d
OBTAINED:1977.05.16
"A Writer's Diary - Being Extracts from the Diary of Virginia Woolf"
Harcourt Brace Jovanovich, Inc.
(1973)
NB:Harvest Book HB264 LuB59
Kirkpatrick Bibliog:Kp4A31c
OBTAINED:1977.05.21
"The Years"
Harcourt, Brace & World, Inc.
(1969)
NB:(W423) Harvest Book HB166
Kirkpatrick Bibliog:Kp4A22g
OBTAINED:1977.05.23
"Between the Acts"
Harcourt Brace Jovanovich, Inc.
(1970)
NB:(W488) Harvest Book HB189 (VWQb) LuB37
Kirkpatrick Bibliog:Kp4A26f
OBTAINED:1977.05.23
"Granite and Rainbow - Essays"
Harcourt Brace Jovanovich
1975
NB:Harvest Book HB318 LuB63
Kirkpatrick Bibliog:Kp4A34c
OBTAINED:1977.05.23
"Life As We Have Known It by Co-operative Working Women"
Virago
1977 (1st ed. 1931)
NB:(W250) Virago Reprint Library No.1 Cited in TGU TGU: n. 13 to ch. 3
Kirkpatrick Bibliog:Kp4B11a
OBTAINED:1977.06.06
"The Captain's Death Bed - and Other Essays"
Harcourt Brace Jovanovich, Inc.
(1973)
NB:(W054) Harvest Book HB253 LuB56
Kirkpatrick Bibliog:Kp4A30d
OBTAINED:1977.06.15
"Orlando: A Biography"
Triad Panther
1977
NB:(W185)
Kirkpatrick Bibliog:Kp4A11k
OBTAINED:1977.08.23
"A Room of One's Own"
Triad Panther
1977
NB:(W215)
Kirkpatrick Bibliog:Kp4A12h
OBTAINED:1977.08.23
"The Years"
Triad Panther
1977
NB:(W423) 2 copies
Kirkpatrick Bibliog:Kp4A22h
OBTAINED:1977.08.23
"To the Lighthouse"
J.M. Dent & Sons Ltd
1977 (imp. of 1938 ed.)
NB:(W154) No. 1949 [paperback] of Everyman's Library
Kirkpatrick Bibliog:Kp4A10d
OBTAINED:1977.11.28
"Three Guineas"
The Hogarth Press
1977, 6th imp. (1943; 1938)
NB:(W440)
Kirkpatrick Bibliog:Kp4A23c
OBTAINED:1977.11.28
"Collected Essays - Volume One"
The Hogarth Press
1968 (2nd imp.)
NB:(W054) LuB69 dj
Kirkpatrick Bibliog:Kp4A37a
OBTAINED:1977.11.28
"The Diary of Virginia Woolf, Volume 1: 1915-1919"
The Hogarth Press
1977
NB:dj
Kirkpatrick Bibliog:Kp4A48a
OBTAINED:1977.11.28
"Books and Portraits: Some further selections from the Literary and Biographical writings of Virginia Woolf"
The Hogarth Press
1977
NB:(KpB06) dj
Kirkpatrick Bibliog:Kp4A49a
OBTAINED:1977.11.28
"Jacob's Room"
Triad Panther
1976
NB:(W026)
Kirkpatrick Bibliog:Kp4A6g
OBTAINED:1977.11.29
"Mrs. Dalloway"
Triad Panther
1976
NB:(W082)
Kirkpatrick Bibliog:Kp4A9k
OBTAINED:1977.11.29
Virginia Woolf: A Biography - Volume One: Virginia Stephen 1882-1912"
Triad Paladin
1976
NB:(H)
Kirkpatrick Bibliog:Kp4B15a
OBTAINED:1977.11.29
Virginia Woolf: A Biography - Volume Two: Mrs Woolf 1912-1941"
Triad Paladin
1976
NB:(H)
Kirkpatrick Bibliog:Kp4B16
OBTAINED:1977.11.29
"A Cockney's Farming Experiences"
San Diego State University Press
1972
NB:Copy 703 of 2000
Kirkpatrick Bibliog:Kp4A41a
OBTAINED:1977.12.14
...
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