[Vwoolf] Leonardo teria aprovado . . .

Erica Mascarenhas theoaktree1586 at gmail.com
Tue Sep 17 06:52:14 EDT 2013


Hello everyone,
I rarely participate in this list but I just had to this time. I have an
idea as to why the translation may seem odd to you. As far as I'm aware,
"be up with the lark" is an idiom in English. On the other hand, I've never
heard it in European Portuguese, with the sole exception of literal
translations from English. I assume translators were simply trying to find
an equivalent idiom, such as "get up with the hens" (it's got nothing to do
with social class, it's simply a reference to the fact that hens get up
early in the morning, and you certainly don't need to have hens living in
your own backyard to say that).

Of course, this brings us back to the old question of how idioms should be
translated. Should they be translated literally or changed to an idiom that
would sound more natural to readers?


2013/9/1 Stuart N. Clarke <stuart.n.clarke at btinternet.com>

>
> Oscar Mendes (1960):
> "- Sim, sem dúvida, se for tempo bom amanhã - disse a Sra Ramsay.  Mas
> você terá de estar de pé com a cotovia - acrescentou."
>
> Luiza Lobo (1982):
> "É claro que amanhã fará um dia bonito – disse a Sra Ramsay. - Mas vocês
> terão que madrugar - acrescentou."
>
> Mário Cláudio (1985):
> "- Sim, é claro, se amanhã estiver bom - disse Mrs Ramsay -, mas vais ter
> de te levantar com as galinhas - acrescentou."
>
> Lucília Rodrigues (1992):
> "- Sim, claro, se o tempo amanhã estiver bom - disse Mrs. Ramsay. - Mas
> vais ter de te levantar bem cedinho - acrescentou."
>
> I would have thought that the Mendes was the best, but --
> “Que scais-je?”
>
> Stuart
>
>
>
>  *From:* Iara Verocai <iverocai at oi.com.br>
> *Sent:* Sunday, September 01, 2013 4:23 PM
> *To:* Stuart N. Clarke <stuart.n.clarke at btinternet.com> ;
> vwoolf at lists.service.ohio-state.edu
> *Subject:* Re: [Vwoolf] Leonardo teria aprovado . . .
>
>   Stuart,
>
>
> “Tradutore, traditore”, as the Italiens say. If with difficult in the
> beginning, it worth running to dictionaries and  grammar books. The
> rhythm and sonority of Virginia’s prose may be lost, even in the best
> translation.
>
>
>
> There are several Portuguese versions of her books, by different
> translators, from Portugal and Brazil. I guess the lines you quote in your
> message are from Portugal. I´m far from by books and can’t check it now.
>
>
>
> For me, to translate “up with the lark” and keep the metaphor, it would be
> better “'mas você vai ter que madrugar”.
>
>  Iara
>  *From:* Stuart N. Clarke <stuart.n.clarke at btinternet.com>
> *Sent:* Saturday, August 31, 2013 8:54 AM
> *To:* vwoolf at lists.service.ohio-state.edu
> *Subject:* [Vwoolf] Leonardo teria aprovado . . .
>
>
> Pessoalmente, I never believe in reading foreign books in the original
> language – I lose so much if it’s *not* in translation!  However, for those
> who can, they should.
>
> '"Yes, of course, if it's fine tomorrow," said Mrs. Ramsay. "But you'll
> have to be up with the lark," she added.'
>
> "- Sim, é claro, se amanhã estiver bon - disse Mrs Ramsay -, mas vais ter
> de te levantar com as galinhas - acrescentou."
> "Yes, of course, if tomorrow is fine," said Mrs. Ramsay, "but you're going
> to have to get up with the hens," she added.
> Suddenly, we've slipped down a few social classes!
>
> I’ve also looked at another couple of Portuguese translations: one said
> that James would have to be up very early and the other said he'd have to
> be up with the dawn.
>
> It is fascinating the difficulty translators have with "up with the lark"
> -- of course, it seems so innocuous to us.  It's metaphorical and
> immediately introduces us to Mrs R's habit of exaggerating.
>
> Stuart
>
>
>
>  *From:* Iara Verocai <iverocai at oi.com.br>
> *Sent:* Saturday, August 31, 2013 12:38 PM
> *To:* Stuart N. Clarke <stuart.n.clarke at btinternet.com> ;
> vwoolf at lists.service.ohio-state.edu
> *Subject:* Re: [Vwoolf] Leonard would have approved . . . (2)
>
>    Stuart with his list reminded me that I read Bell´s biography in 1889,
> in a rather good translation to Portuguese. I´d been reading Virginia since
> the late sixties: Jacob´s Room and To the Lighthouse bought in Penguin
> editions. I had been atracted to her by Albee´s play. I read several olhers
> issued along the seventies and eighties, new Portuguese editions  issued in
> Brazil. While I read Bell, however, I got convinced that I should keep
> reading her books in English,  for a new reading after my dicover of how
> her books were so inspired by her difficult yet enriching life. Also, I
> began to buy  whatever I found by and about her.  Voyages to Great Britain
> and the US together with the Internet facilities have made it easy to
> gather a nice Virginiana. For almost 15 year I´ve been following this list,
> a quiet common reader learning  about her work from the perspective  and
> knowledge of list members. Thank you all!
>
> Iara
>
>  *From:* Stuart N. Clarke <stuart.n.clarke at btinternet.com>
>  *Sent:* Friday, August 30, 2013 4:11 AM
> *To:* vwoolf at lists.service.ohio-state.edu
> *Subject:* [Vwoolf] Leonard would have approved . . . (2)
>
>
> Not 100% accurate.  E.g. not listed below: fancy leaving “The Years” (my
> only prize book from school) in a taxi in North Bondi (Sydney) c. 1 April
> 1972!  (And why do I know that date?  Because it was about the time I moved
> flat, and just at the moment I have to supply info. to the UK Pension
> Service to persuade them to increase my Old Age Pension.  “Tell us the
> exact period(s) you lived in Australia, Canada or New Zealand from age 16
> and your addresses.  If you need more space ...”  I certainly do.)
>
>
>
> *VIRGINIA WOOLF BOOKS ACQUIRED, up to July 1978*
>
> *(in acquisition date order)*
>
>
>
> "The Waves"
>
> Penguin Books
>
> 1951 (1966 imp.)
>
> NB:(W279) Penguin Modern Classic 808
>
> Kirkpatrick Bibliog:Kp4A16e
>
> OBTAINED:1966.08.19
>
>
>
> "Jacob's Room"
>
> Penguin Books
>
> 1965
>
> NB:(W026) Penguin Modern Classic 2259
>
> Kirkpatrick Bibliog:Kp4A6f
>
> OBTAINED:1966.09.03
>
>
>
> "The Death of the Moth - and other essays"
>
> Penguin Books
>
> 1961 (1965 imp.)
>
> NB:(W500) Penguin Modern Classic 1644   (VWQb) (KpA13)  LuB39
>
> Kirkpatrick Bibliog:Kp4A27c
>
> OBTAINED:1966.12.29
>
>
>
> "The Common Reader"
>
> The Hogarth Press (Uniform Ed)
>
> 1929 ("New Edition")
>
> NB:(W081)  ffep missing.
>
> Kirkpatrick Bibliog:Kp4A8c
>
> OBTAINED:1967.02.04
>
>
>
> "Mrs. Dalloway"
>
> Penguin Books
>
> 1964 (1967 imp.)
>
> NB:(W082) Penguin Modern Classic 2159
>
> Kirkpatrick Bibliog:Kp4A9h
>
> OBTAINED:1967.04.27
>
>
>
> "A Room of One's Own"
>
> Harmondsworth, Middx: Penguin Books
>
> 1963 (1967 imp.)
>
> NB:(W215) Penguin Modern Classic 481
>
> Kirkpatrick Bibliog:Kp4A12f
>
> OBTAINED:1968.01.19
>
>
>
> "Orlando: A Biography"
>
> Penguin Books
>
> 1963 (1967 imp.)
>
> NB:(W185) Penguin Modern Classic 381
>
> Kirkpatrick Bibliog:Kp4A11h
>
> OBTAINED:1968.01.30
>
>
>
> "A Room of One's Own"
>
> Penguin Books
>
> 1945
>
> NB:(W215) Vol.481
>
> Kirkpatrick Bibliog:Kp4A12e
>
> OBTAINED:1968.05.10
>
>
>
> "The Voyage Out"
>
> Harcourt, Brace & World, Inc.
>
> (1968)
>
> NB:(W213) Harvest Book HB151  Bought in the US
>
> Kirkpatrick Bibliog:Kp4A1f
>
> OBTAINED:1969.07.30
>
>
>
> "The Second Common Reader"
>
> Harcourt, Brace & World, Inc.
>
> Dec 1966 (1956)
>
> NB:(W315) Harvest Book HB24  Bought in the US
>
> Kirkpatrick Bibliog:Kp4A18f
>
> OBTAINED:1969.07.30
>
>
>
> "Flush"
>
> Harcourt, Brace & World, Inc.
>
> (1966)
>
> NB:(W334) Harbrace Paperback Library HPL12   Bought in the US
>
> Kirkpatrick Bibliog:Kp4A19e
>
> OBTAINED:1969.08.13
>
>
>
> "A Writer's Diary - Being Extracts from the Diary of Virginia Woolf"
>
> The New American Library
>
> 1968
>
> NB:Signet Classic CY424  LuB59   Bought in the US
>
> Kirkpatrick Bibliog:Kp4A31bb
>
> OBTAINED:1969.08.13
>
>
>
> "A Haunted House - and Other Short Stories"
>
> Harcourt, Brace & World, Inc.
>
> Aug 1967 (1974)
>
> NB:(W507) (W001) (W007) (W008) (W017) Harvest Book HB105   (VWQb)  (KpA02)
> (KpA03)  (W155)  LuB46   Bought in the US
>
> Kirkpatrick Bibliog:Kp4A28d
>
> OBTAINED:1969.09.08
>
>
>
> "Three Guineas"
>
> Harcourt, Brace & World, Inc.
>
> (1963)
>
> NB:(W440) Harbinger Book H021   Bought in the US
>
> Kirkpatrick Bibliog:Kp4A23d
>
> OBTAINED:1969.09.09
>
>
>
> "Between the Acts"
>
> The Hogarth Press
>
> 1969 (8th imp.)
>
> NB:(W488) (VWQb)  LuB37  dj
>
> Kirkpatrick Bibliog:Kp4A26c
>
> OBTAINED:1969.10.25
>
>
>
> "Nurse Lugton's Golden Thimble"
>
> The Hogarth Press
>
> 1966
>
> NB:  LuB70 dj   Kirkpatrick Bibliog:Kp4C376  NLG
>
> Kirkpatrick Bibliog:Kp4A38a
>
> OBTAINED:1969.11.11
>
>
>
> "Night and Day"
>
> Penguin Books
>
> 1969
>
> NB:(W214)
>
> Kirkpatrick Bibliog:Kp4A4e
>
> OBTAINED:1969.11.27
>
>
>
> "The Moment - and Other Essays"
>
> The Hogarth Press
>
> 1964 (imp. of 1952 ed.)
>
> NB:(Kirkpatrick Bibliog:Kp4A14) (Kirkpatrick Bibliog:Kp4A21) (W245)  LuB52
> dj
>
> Kirkpatrick Bibliog:Kp4A29c
>
> OBTAINED:1970.04.18
>
>
>
> "The Voyage Out"
>
> Penguin Books
>
> 1970
>
> NB:(W213)
>
> Kirkpatrick Bibliog:Kp4A1g
>
> OBTAINED:1970.08.07
>
>
>
> "To the Lighthouse"
>
> Penguin Books
>
> 1964 (1965 imp.)
>
> NB:(W154) Penguin Modern Classic 2165
>
> Kirkpatrick Bibliog:Kp4A10f
>
> OBTAINED:1970.12.31
>
>
>
> "Contemporary Writers"
>
> The Hogarth Press
>
> 1965
>
> NB:dj
>
> Kirkpatrick Bibliog:Kp4A35a
>
> OBTAINED:1971.10.26
>
>
>
> "Roger Fry:  A Biography"
>
> The Hogarth Press
>
> 1969, 3rd* imp. (1940)
>
> NB:(W475) (VWQb)  dj  *Actually 4th
>
> Kirkpatrick Bibliog:Kp4A25a
>
> OBTAINED:1971.11.16
>
>
>
> "Granite and Rainbow - Essays"
>
> The Hogarth Press
>
> 1960 (2nd imp.)
>
> NB:  LuB63  dj
>
> Kirkpatrick Bibliog:Kp4A34a
>
> OBTAINED:1971.11.16
>
>
>
> "Letters"
>
> The Hogarth Press & Chatto and Windus
>
> 1969, 2nd imp. (1956)
>
> NB:  LuB61  dj
>
> Kirkpatrick Bibliog:Kp4A32a
>
> OBTAINED:1972.05.17
>
>
>
> "Jacob's Room"
>
> Penguin Books
>
> 1965 (1968 imp.)
>
> NB:(W026) Penguin Modern Classic 2259
>
> Kirkpatrick Bibliog:Kp4A6f
>
> OBTAINED:1972.08.14
>
>
>
> "Virginia Woolf: A Biography - Volume One:  Virginia Stephen 1882-1912"
>
> The Hogarth Press
>
> 1972
>
> NB:dj
>
> Kirkpatrick Bibliog:Kp4B15a
>
> OBTAINED:1972.10.12
>
>
>
> "Virginia Woolf: A Biography - Volume Two: Mrs Woolf 1912-1941"
>
> The Hogarth Press
>
> 1972
>
> NB:dj
>
> Kirkpatrick Bibliog:Kp4B16
>
> OBTAINED:1972.12.06
>
>
>
> "The Common Reader"
>
> Harcourt, Brace & World, Inc.
>
> (1955)
>
> NB:(W082) Harvest Book HB10
>
> Kirkpatrick Bibliog:Kp4A8e
>
> OBTAINED:1973.05.07
>
>
>
> "Mrs Dalloway's Party: A Short Story Sequence"
>
> The Hogarth Press
>
> 1973
>
> NB:dj
>
> Kirkpatrick Bibliog:Kp4A42a
>
> OBTAINED:1973.08.22
>
>
>
> "Between the Acts"
>
> Penguin Books
>
> 1953 (1972 imp.)
>
> NB:(W488) (VWQb)  LuB37
>
> Kirkpatrick Bibliog:Kp4A26d
>
> OBTAINED:1973.11.12
>
>
>
> "A Haunted House - and other stories"
>
> Penguin Books
>
> 1973 (1973 reprint)
>
> NB:(W507) (W001) (W007) (W008) (W017) (VWQb)  (KpA02) (KpA03)  (W155)
> LuB46
>
> Kirkpatrick Bibliog:Kp4A28e
>
> OBTAINED:1974.07.23
>
>
>
> "The Flight of the Mind - The Letters of Virginia Woolf, Volume 1:
> 1888-1912 (Virginia Stephen)"
>
> The Hogarth Press
>
> 1975
>
> NB:dj
>
> Kirkpatrick Bibliog:Kp4A44a
>
> OBTAINED:1975.10.01
>
>
>
> "Mrs. Dalloway"
>
> Chatto & Windus (The New Phoenix Library)
>
> 3rd imp., 1950
>
> NB:(W082)
>
> Kirkpatrick Bibliog:Kp4A9f
>
> OBTAINED:1976.06.18
>
>
>
> "Moments of Being: Unpublished Autobiographical Writings"
>
> The University Press, Sussex
>
> 1976
>
> NB:dj
>
> Kirkpatrick Bibliog:Kp4A45a
>
> OBTAINED:1976.07.22
>
>
>
> "The Question of Things Happening - The Letters of Virginia Woolf, Volume
> 2:  1912-1922"
>
> The Hogarth Press
>
> 1976
>
> NB:dj
>
> Kirkpatrick Bibliog:Kp4A47a
>
> OBTAINED:1976.11.22
>
>
>
> "Mrs. Dalloway"
>
> Random House (The Modern Library, Vol. 217, binding style 8)
>
> 1928 (1939? reprint*)
>
> NB:(W082) Introduction by Virginia Woolf:  Kirkpatrick Bibliog:Kp4B8  *Signed
> by a previous owner in 1943.  dj not obtained
>
> Kirkpatrick Bibliog:Kp4A9c
>
> OBTAINED:1976.12.01
>
>
>
> "The Years"
>
> The Hogarth Press
>
> 1972, 6th imp. (1940)
>
> NB:(W423)
>
> Kirkpatrick Bibliog:Kp4A22c
>
> OBTAINED:1977.02.08
>
>
>
> "The Waves: The two holograph drafts"
>
> The Hogarth Press
>
> 1976
>
> NB:(W279)  dj
>
> Kirkpatrick Bibliog:Kp4A16h
>
> OBTAINED:1977.03.11
>
>
>
> "Contemporary Writers"
>
> Harcourt Brace Jovanovich
>
> 1976
>
> NB:Harvest Book HB347
>
> Kirkpatrick Bibliog:Kp4A35c
>
> OBTAINED:1977.03.26
>
>
>
> "Jacob's Room"
>
> The Hogarth Press
>
> 1976, 12th imp. (1945)
>
> NB:(W026)
>
> Kirkpatrick Bibliog:Kp4A6d
>
> OBTAINED:1977.05.05
>
>
>
> "A Writer's Diary - Being Extracts from the Diary of Virginia Woolf"
>
> The Hogarth Press
>
> 1975, 7th imp. (1954)
>
> NB:  LuB59  dj
>
> Kirkpatrick Bibliog:Kp4A31a
>
> OBTAINED:1977.05.05
>
>
>
> Freshwater:  A Comedy"
>
> The Hogarth Press
>
> 1976
>
> NB:dj
>
> Kirkpatrick Bibliog:Kp4A46b
>
> OBTAINED:1977.05.05
>
>
>
> "The Voyage Out"
>
> The Hogarth Press
>
> 1975, 10th imp. (1929)
>
> NB:(W213)
>
> Kirkpatrick Bibliog:Kp4A1e
>
> OBTAINED:1977.05.09
>
>
>
> "Night and Day"
>
> The Hogarth Press
>
> 1971 (9th imp.)
>
> NB:(W214)
>
> Kirkpatrick Bibliog:Kp4A4c
>
> OBTAINED:1977.05.09
>
>
>
> "To the Lighthouse"
>
> The Hogarth Press
>
> 1974 (Uniform ed., 1930)
>
> NB:(W154) dj - inside front flap: blurb same as on previous (1967) reprint
>
> Kirkpatrick Bibliog:Kp4A10c
>
> OBTAINED:1977.05.09
>
>
>
> "A Room of One's Own"
>
> The Hogarth Press (Uniform Edition)
>
> 1930 (15th imp. 1974)
>
> NB:(W215)  dj
>
> Kirkpatrick Bibliog:Kp4A12d
>
> OBTAINED:1977.05.09
>
>
>
> "A Haunted House - and Other Short Stories"
>
> The Hogarth Press
>
> (1953) 1973 imp.
>
> NB:(W507) (W001) (W007) (W008) (W017) VWQb  (KpA02) (KpA03)  (W155)  LuB46
> dj
>
> Kirkpatrick Bibliog:Kp4A28c
>
> OBTAINED:1977.05.09
>
>
>
> "The Waves"
>
> The Hogarth Press
>
> '12th imp. 1976' (1943)
>
> NB:(W279)  dj
>
> Kirkpatrick Bibliog:Kp4A16d
>
> OBTAINED:1977.05.16
>
>
>
> "A Writer's Diary - Being Extracts from the Diary of Virginia Woolf"
>
> Harcourt Brace Jovanovich, Inc.
>
> (1973)
>
> NB:Harvest Book HB264  LuB59
>
> Kirkpatrick Bibliog:Kp4A31c
>
> OBTAINED:1977.05.21
>
>
>
> "The Years"
>
> Harcourt, Brace & World, Inc.
>
> (1969)
>
> NB:(W423) Harvest Book HB166
>
> Kirkpatrick Bibliog:Kp4A22g
>
> OBTAINED:1977.05.23
>
>
>
> "Between the Acts"
>
> Harcourt Brace Jovanovich, Inc.
>
> (1970)
>
> NB:(W488) Harvest Book HB189   (VWQb)  LuB37
>
> Kirkpatrick Bibliog:Kp4A26f
>
> OBTAINED:1977.05.23
>
>
>
> "Granite and Rainbow - Essays"
>
> Harcourt Brace Jovanovich
>
> 1975
>
> NB:Harvest Book HB318  LuB63
>
> Kirkpatrick Bibliog:Kp4A34c
>
> OBTAINED:1977.05.23
>
>
>
> "Life As We Have Known It by Co-operative Working Women"
>
> Virago
>
> 1977 (1st ed. 1931)
>
> NB:(W250) Virago Reprint Library No.1   Cited in TGU TGU: n. 13 to ch. 3
>
> Kirkpatrick Bibliog:Kp4B11a
>
> OBTAINED:1977.06.06
>
>
>
> "The Captain's Death Bed - and Other Essays"
>
> Harcourt Brace Jovanovich, Inc.
>
> (1973)
>
> NB:(W054) Harvest Book HB253  LuB56
>
> Kirkpatrick Bibliog:Kp4A30d
>
> OBTAINED:1977.06.15
>
>
>
> "Orlando:  A Biography"
>
> Triad Panther
>
> 1977
>
> NB:(W185)
>
> Kirkpatrick Bibliog:Kp4A11k
>
> OBTAINED:1977.08.23
>
>
>
> "A Room of One's Own"
>
> Triad Panther
>
> 1977
>
> NB:(W215)
>
> Kirkpatrick Bibliog:Kp4A12h
>
> OBTAINED:1977.08.23
>
>
>
> "The Years"
>
> Triad Panther
>
> 1977
>
> NB:(W423)   2 copies
>
> Kirkpatrick Bibliog:Kp4A22h
>
> OBTAINED:1977.08.23
>
>
>
> "To the Lighthouse"
>
> J.M. Dent & Sons Ltd
>
> 1977 (imp. of 1938 ed.)
>
> NB:(W154) No. 1949 [paperback] of Everyman's Library
>
> Kirkpatrick Bibliog:Kp4A10d
>
> OBTAINED:1977.11.28
>
>
>
> "Three Guineas"
>
> The Hogarth Press
>
> 1977, 6th imp. (1943; 1938)
>
> NB:(W440)
>
> Kirkpatrick Bibliog:Kp4A23c
>
> OBTAINED:1977.11.28
>
>
>
> "Collected Essays - Volume One"
>
> The Hogarth Press
>
> 1968 (2nd imp.)
>
> NB:(W054)  LuB69  dj
>
> Kirkpatrick Bibliog:Kp4A37a
>
> OBTAINED:1977.11.28
>
>
>
> "The Diary of Virginia Woolf, Volume 1: 1915-1919"
>
> The Hogarth Press
>
> 1977
>
> NB:dj
>
> Kirkpatrick Bibliog:Kp4A48a
>
> OBTAINED:1977.11.28
>
>
>
> "Books and Portraits: Some further selections from the Literary and
> Biographical writings of Virginia Woolf"
>
> The Hogarth Press
>
> 1977
>
> NB:(KpB06)  dj
>
> Kirkpatrick Bibliog:Kp4A49a
>
> OBTAINED:1977.11.28
>
>
>
> "Jacob's Room"
>
> Triad Panther
>
> 1976
>
> NB:(W026)
>
> Kirkpatrick Bibliog:Kp4A6g
>
> OBTAINED:1977.11.29
>
>
>
> "Mrs. Dalloway"
>
> Triad Panther
>
> 1976
>
> NB:(W082)
>
> Kirkpatrick Bibliog:Kp4A9k
>
> OBTAINED:1977.11.29
>
>
>
> Virginia Woolf: A Biography - Volume One: Virginia Stephen 1882-1912"
>
> Triad Paladin
>
> 1976
>
> NB:(H)
>
> Kirkpatrick Bibliog:Kp4B15a
>
> OBTAINED:1977.11.29
>
>
>
> Virginia Woolf: A Biography - Volume Two: Mrs Woolf 1912-1941"
>
> Triad Paladin
>
> 1976
>
> NB:(H)
>
> Kirkpatrick Bibliog:Kp4B16
>
> OBTAINED:1977.11.29
>
>
>
> "A Cockney's Farming Experiences"
>
> San Diego State University Press
>
> 1972
>
> NB:Copy 703 of 2000
>
> Kirkpatrick Bibliog:Kp4A41a
>
> OBTAINED:1977.12.14
>
>
>
> ...
>
> [Mensagem reduzida]
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>
>
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