[Vwoolf] staging female author suicides

Gregory Jordan Dekter jdekter at gmail.com
Wed Jun 19 16:12:00 EDT 2013


Brenda,

I agree with you that discussion of Woolf's suicide is excessive, and the
fact that it can overshadow her literary output in the minds of some is
troubling. It is an unfortunate phenomenon, as you know, not at all
exclusive to Woolf. For whatever reason, suicide itself (and often not the
illness that drives a person to it) is a topic of great interest in
society, and even more so when the subject is well known. That is not the
position from which I defend this photo spread. There is no doubt the
spread is cliche. I do not think it is particularly good art--but it *is*art.

> (Were there captions running under Marlon Brando in *Apocalypse Now*informing viewers who made his clothing?  Do we see that
> *anywhere* except when the clothing is being publicized as fashion?

Yes, we do. *Apocalypse Now *was precisely my example of the contrary. It
carried no credits at all. Not actors, writer, director, or the author that
influenced it had their names displayed on screen at any time. Just about
every other contemporary film we watch, however, always carries a credit to
the costume designer, right along side the actors, writer, director, etc.
For the purpose of a magazine we call it a fashion designer. In film we
call it a costume designer. It means the same thing. The costumes in these
photos came from somewhere, and crediting the source they came from is not
tantamount to direct advertising.

> Have you ever seen someone after they’ve committed suicide?  It isn’t
> pretty.  They’re not nicely arranged on the pavement in fashionable
> clothing unmarred by blood or dirt, as if they’d suddenly decided to lay
> down gently and take a nap.

Generally, no. Realistically, no. But art is often about shifting
perception away from the real. Do you remember that photograph, published
in Life magazine but made popular by Andy Warhol in the work "Suicide
(Fallen Body)"? It depicts the suicide of an otherwise unknown woman. The
Life magazine caption read: “At the bottom of the Empire State Building the
body of Evelyn McHale reposes calmly in grotesque bier, her falling body
punched into the top of a car.” The photo was apparently called "the most
beautiful suicide". Here is some information about it:
http://iconicphotos.wordpress.com/2010/07/16/the-empire-state-of-leap/There
is more that could be said on this. Staged vs found photographs, for
one. But that is not my point. Merely, it is not the duty of art to express
reality.

> It also implies that intellectual gifts and artistic talents in women
> somehow lead to suicide,

Any group of images by an artist usually has some cohesive idea behind it.
Depicted here are the images of women who did, or attempted to, kill
themselves. Is it unfair to group images by theme, or do you assert that
suicide is not a valid theme in art? In any case, I do not agree with your
reading of the images here.

> which has the obvious effect of discouraging women from pursuing their own
> gifts and talents.  Further, it encourages people who suffer from
> psychological problems accompanied by thoughts of suicide to understand
> themselves as potential geniuses rather than to understand themselves as
> needing professional help.

Again you have made an assertion that I see no evidence for.

Greg

On 19 June 2013 14:56, Brenda S. Helt <helt0010 at umn.edu> wrote:

> Greg, I think a lot of those of us who teach, study, and write about
> Woolf’s work are “bothered by” the fact that Woolf’s suicide is so often
> cited and capitalized upon.  In fact, many have written about this
> unfortunate phenomenon.  I saw that exhibit at the NYPL as well, and I was
> definitely bothered by the fact that the curators found it necessary to
> link the walking stick to her suicide.  Not *surprised*, since it’s such
> a common gambit, but definitely bothered by.  It’s a *library*; how about
> a note mentioning the long walks on the Sussex downs she’d take with this
> stick while conceptualizing a novel?  The result is that many students come
> into our classes knowing only that one fact about Woolf, just as they know
> that one detail about Plath.  And yes, many of us are also bothered by the
> opening of *The Hours*, which capitalizes on Woolf’s suicide and
> aetheticizes it.  I’ve seen the VICE spread, and it certainly was a
> (misguided, at the least) attempt to market fashion.  (Were there captions
> running under Marlon Brando in *Apocalypse Now* informing viewers who
> made his clothing?  Do we see that *anywhere* except when the clothing is
> being publicized as fashion?  This fashion spread--as somebody on the list
> already said, I believe--was suicide porn.)****
>
> ** **
>
> Have you ever seen someone after they’ve committed suicide?  It isn’t
> pretty.  They’re not nicely arranged on the pavement in fashionable
> clothing unmarred by blood or dirt, as if they’d suddenly decided to lay
> down gently and take a nap.  Woolf was nearly unrecognizable after several
> days under water.  The VICE spread fetishizes and aestheticizes the suicide
> of female intellectuals.  It also implies that intellectual gifts and
> artistic talents in women somehow lead to suicide, which has the obvious
> effect of discouraging women from pursuing their own gifts and talents.
>  Further, it encourages people who suffer from psychological problems
> accompanied by thoughts of suicide to understand themselves as potential
> geniuses rather than to understand themselves as needing professional
> help.  There is no way to recuperate any of that.****
>
> ** **
>
> Brenda Helt****
>
> ** **
>
> *From:* vwoolf-bounces at lists.service.ohio-state.edu [mailto:
> vwoolf-bounces at lists.service.ohio-state.edu] *On Behalf Of *Gregory
> Jordan Dekter
> *Sent:* Wednesday, June 19, 2013 11:23 AM
> *To:* vwoolf at lists.service.ohio-state.edu
>
> *Subject:* Re: [Vwoolf] staging female author suicides****
>
> ** **
>
> Perhaps some of you were able to see the photographs on the VICE website
> before they were taken down. I had only been able to find a few out of
> context (without captions), and so reserved my response until I could get a
> copy of the print edition, which I have now done. I think I am somewhat
> informed now to discuss it. ****
>
> Purely aesthetically, I would like to say that these are beautifully
> arranged and photographed images. They are dramatic, and evocative. They do
> not seem to me exploitative, or at least not in a way that is inconsistent
> with any other contemporary art. ****
>
> Most importantly they are depictions of tragic events, with any narrative
> enforced only by the small caption stating the subject and a brief line
> about their death. For example, for Woolf the caption reads:****
>
> VIRGINIA WOOLF, 59
> *Born: January 25, 1882
> (London, England)
> Died: March 28, 1941
> (Lewes, England)
> Cause of death: drowning*****
>
> Kimberly, you had said the spread is being used to sell fashion. This is
> really not the case. Although this series is indexed in the magazine under
> "Fashion", I think that is an incredibly subjective term, and the general
> intention of the magazine needs to be considered. This is not a commercial
> fashion magazine. The entire tone of VICE is artistic and/or experimental
> (I don't know of many other free national publications that devote entire
> issues to contemporary fiction). It should not be considered along side
> Cosmo and the like. ****
>
> It seems the primary reason this spread bothers most of you is that the
> clothing designers are specifically credited for the examples of their work
> that appear in each photograph. Let me clear up that these credits are
> minimal, and provide no information on how or where to buy this clothing.
> It is no more an advert than any other credit is an advert of the
> contributor. Clothing design is a valid medium of artistic expression, and
> it seems to me these designers were credited as artists, just as the
> models, stylist, and photographer were. There is nothing explicitly for
> sale in these photographs. ****
>
> Let me put it another way. The clothing we wear, often overlooked, is an
> essential part of our existence. Every shirt, dress, or pair of pants you
> put on was designed and made by someone. Should a designer of something not
> rightfully be credited for their work if the thing they designed is for
> sale? Or do you all consider "fashion" too flippant a form to be taken
> seriously? Or, conversely, should no one involved in a particularly heavy
> subject be credited at the risk of distracting from, or devaluing their own
> work? (The film "Apocalypse Now" was originally shown without opening or
> closing credits for this reason--but it is a rare instance).****
>
> If the distaste is that the images use the theme of suicide as a point of
> interest, I am reminded of a recent experience I had. Last year I attended
> an exhibit at the New York Public Library that included some Woolf
> artifacts. One item was a diary. Another was her walking stick.
> Interestingly, the exhibit made particular note that the walking stick
> displayed was the one Woolf had with her when she walked into the River
> Ouse the day she killed herself. I wonder what additional enticement the
> curator felt describing the item by its final use would create. Was the
> simple fact that the walking stick was owned by Virginia Woolf not enough?
> Was some additional allure manifest in its passive connection to her
> suicide? I don't know the answer to this, but I also do not remember anyone
> being bothered by it. ****
>
> Greg****
>
> ** **
>
> On 18 June 2013 19:55, Jean Mallinson <annaj at telus.net> wrote:****
>
> I'm glad it was taken down but the apology  shows a failure to grasp jut
> how deeply offensive the whole scheme was. It is a kind of suicide porn and
> suggests a very depraved taste. It made me feel sad and angry.
> Jean ****
>
> On 6/18/2013 1:24 PM, Melanie White wrote:****
>
> Apart from VW, the characters in The Hours were fictional, and VW’s death
> was decades ago, whereas Iris Chang’s family and loved ones probably are
> still very much processing their grief over her suicide. The image of her
> was breathtakingly insensitive and offensive to me for that reason. ****
>
>  ****
>
> *From:* vwoolf-bounces at lists.service.ohio-state.edu [
> mailto:vwoolf-bounces at lists.service.ohio-state.edu<vwoolf-bounces at lists.service.ohio-state.edu>]
> *On Behalf Of *Kimberly Coates****
>
>
> *Sent:* Tuesday, June 18, 2013 12:27 PM
> *To:* Gregory Jordan Dekter; Anne Margaret Daniel****
>
> *Cc:* vwoolf at lists.service.ohio-state.edu****
>
>
> *Subject:* Re: [Vwoolf] staging female author suicides****
>
>  ****
>
> Greg:****
>
>  ****
>
> There is no comparison. The VICE spread is using suicide to sell fashion
> and in doing so it glamorizes and aestheticizes female bodies in pain. It
> also takes our attention far away from the amazing work all of these women
> accomplished. You would think that in an issue announcing itself as
> covering Women's Fiction that the work would be their concern. Whatever you
> want to say about Michael Cunningham and/or the film version of his novel
> The Hours, he isn't guilty of promoting suicide to sell shoes and vintage
> attire!****
>
>  ****
>
> Kim****
>
>  ****
>
> Kimberly Coates, Ph.D.****
>
> Associate Professor of English****
>
> Affiliate Faculty Women's, Gender, and Sexuality Studies/American Culture
> Studies****
>
> Bowling Green State University****
>
> Bowling Green, OH 43403****
>
> Office Phone: 419-372-9189****
>
>  ****
>
>  ****
>
> *From: *Gregory Jordan Dekter <jdekter at gmail.com>
> *Date: *Tuesday, June 18, 2013 3:08 PM
> *To: *Anne Margaret Daniel <daniela at newschool.edu>
> *Cc: *"vwoolf at lists.service.ohio-state.edu" <
> vwoolf at lists.service.ohio-state.edu>
> *Subject: *Re: [Vwoolf] staging female author suicides****
>
>  ****
>
> I'm just wondering of those who oppose this, are you equally offended by
> the portrayal of the same event in "The Hours"?****
>
> On 18 June 2013 15:03, Anne Margaret Daniel <daniela at newschool.edu> wrote:
> ****
>
> VICE has removed the online photos, not apologizing very much ("to anyone
> who was hurt or offended") and stating, defensively, that their "main goal
> is to create artful images, with the fashion message following, rather than
> leading."  Taken down online, but still in print.    ****
>
> Here is the Vice statement:
> http://www.vice.com/read/last-words-000741-v20n6****
>
> And here, still online at Inquisitr, is the photo of the model portraying
> Woolf, standing in water and holding a large stone.  No words for it,
> really.****
>
> http://www.inquisitr.com/793059/vices-suicide-fashion-apology/****
>
>  ****
>
>  ****
>
>  ****
>
>  ****
>
> On Tue, Jun 18, 2013 at 1:59 PM, Melanie White <melanie.white at comcast.net>
> wrote:****
>
>
> http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2013/06/18/193014174/book-news-vice-draws-ire-by-staging-female-author-suicides?utm_source&utm_medium=facebook&utm_campaign=20130617
> ****
>
>  ****
>
> Someone said this has been taken down now. ****
>
>
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> ****
>
>  ****
>
> -- ****
>
>  ****
>
>  ****
>
> Best,****
>
> AMDaniel****
>
> www.annemargaretdaniel.com****
>
>  ****
>
>
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