[Heb-NACO] FW: Romanisation of - phot of E. ha-I

Tue Jul 25 14:45:27 EDT 2023

Thank you, Haim! Per the attached photo of the needed page from E. ha-‘I., we see the correct romanization is be-Bizanṭiyon. Kol tuv, Jasmin

From: Gottschalk, Haim <hgot at loc.gov>
Sent: Tuesday, July 25, 2023 2:37 PM
To: Shinohara, Jasmin <jshino at upenn.edu>
Subject: RE: Romanisation of - phot of E. ha-I

Hi Jasmin, here is a photo of the entry in Enc. Ha-I.

Haim

From: Shinohara, Jasmin <jshino at upenn.edu<mailto:jshino at upenn.edu>>
Sent: Tuesday, July 25, 2023 2:15 PM
To: Galron, Joseph <galron.1 at osu.edu<mailto:galron.1 at osu.edu>>; Hebrew Name Authority Funnel <heb-naco at lists.osu.edu<mailto:heb-naco at lists.osu.edu>>; Gottschalk, Haim <hgot at loc.gov<mailto:hgot at loc.gov>>; Freedman, Vanessa <v.freedman at ucl.ac.uk<mailto:v.freedman at ucl.ac.uk>>
Subject: RE: Romanisation of בביזנטיון

CAUTION: This email message has been received from an external source. Please use caution when opening attachments, or clicking on links.
Hi, all. Thank you, Vanessa, for your question. I think a few different aspects of romanization have gotten mixed together.

  1.  Per HCM-RDA, p. 19, the standard romanized forms of place names are based on the form found in E-Sh. and, if not found there, the form in Entsiklopedyah ha-‘Ivrit (E. ha-‘I.). E-Sh. has an entry for בִּיזַנְטִי and within the definition gives the form בִּיזַנְטוֹן, but there is no entry or usage of ביזנטיון in E-Sh. The entry for ביזנטיון is in v.8 of E. ha-‘I.; unfortunately, the Internet Archive scan<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/archive.org/details/2_20200322_20200322_1243/Encyclopaedia_Hebraica_Vol8/page/n179/mode/2up__;!!IBzWLUs!W9Zfonaj6m2wjLCLYk-HXLCit6uyqByfwcCIZPqeGO32MsHVJPudl0ePya25k2zMvl6VjT1FNEwo$> is a bit blurry and it’s not clear what, if any, vocalization is present under the letters ב and ט. I’ve requested the hard copy from our off-site storage. The ṿaṿ has a ḥolam, so it’s definitely Biz…on not Biz…un.

  1.  The examples given of בני ברק and בבל are both of Hebrew names/words; as such, rules of aspiration apply, yielding the forms be-Vavel and bi-Vene Berak, along with bi-Verit ha-Mo’atsot as Yossi explained. Hebrew grammar rules applied to Hebrew names cannot be used to infer treatment of non-Hebrew/foreign names. (I.e., be-Vavel =/=> be-Viz…on)

  1.  ביזנטיון is a foreign word/name, as is ברלין. Searching LC for forms of בברלין yields the expected be-Berlin. The same treatment would follow for בביזנטיון à be-Bizanṭyon/be-Bizanṭiyon (pending what’s found in E. ha-‘I.). For בברוקלין, LC has a mix of be- and bi-Bruḳlin. Notably, there is no bX-Vruḳlin. Per HCM-RDA, p. 17, “These initial clusters retain the effect of vowel "heightening"--the sheṿa of the prefixes be-, ke-, and le- becomes a ḥiriḳ: bi-, ki-, li-.” Bi-Bruḳlin is correct.

  1.  בירושלים is romanized as bi-Yerushalayim for separate, unrelated reasons, and has no relation to the romanization of other place names that either do or do not follow Hebrew grammar rules of aspiration and vowel-heightening (depending on their origin).

  1.  HCM-RDA, p. 18, specifically states that the correct form is be-Polin, not be-Folin. I’m sure all our catalogs have wrong forms, not just LC. 😊

Regarding the instruction “A few loan words are also treated as though exempt from the rules governing the aspiration/non-aspiration of b/v, k/kh, and p/f when preceded by an open syllable”, I agree that it could be more helpful. I think most loan words are treated as exempt from the rules of aspiration/non-aspiration; exceptions are indicated in the Romanization FAQ<https://urldefense.com/v3/__http:/rascat.pbworks.com/w/page/109347700/Romanization*20FAQ__;JQ!!IBzWLUs!W9Zfonaj6m2wjLCLYk-HXLCit6uyqByfwcCIZPqeGO32MsHVJPudl0ePya25k2zMvl6Vje7yEtyU$> (see entries under ב and פ). I noted that this section needs revision.

Please let me know if there are any questions! Thanks, Jasmin

From: Heb-naco <heb-naco-bounces+jshino=upenn.edu at lists.osu.edu<mailto:heb-naco-bounces+jshino=upenn.edu at lists.osu.edu>> On Behalf Of Galron, Joseph via Heb-naco
Sent: Tuesday, July 25, 2023 12:05 PM
To: Gottschalk, Haim <hgot at loc.gov<mailto:hgot at loc.gov>>; Hebrew Name Authority Funnel <heb-naco at lists.osu.edu<mailto:heb-naco at lists.osu.edu>>; Freedman, Vanessa <v.freedman at ucl.ac.uk<mailto:v.freedman at ucl.ac.uk>>
Subject: Re: [Heb-NACO] Romanisation of בביזנטיון

Well, I don’t agree with the notion that we have to transcribe the non-Hebrew names according to the rules of the Hebrew language.
A search in the OCLC database found 1266 hits for “be-Polin” (of those there are 146 records from the Library of Congress) and 140 hits for “be-Folin” (of those there are 2 records from LC).
Hebrew place name (Bene Berak, Berit ha-mo’atsot, etc.) should be transcribed according to the Hebrew grammar rules (i.e bi-Vene Berak, bi-Verit ha-moatsot, etc.)

That reminds me on the story about the discussion in the Israeli Kenesset in the 1950s when Rabbi Fishman of the Mafdal party  complained that the government does not encourage the use of proper grammatical rules, especially a case of Dagesh in the letters Bet, Gimel, Dalet, Kaf, Peh and Tav when they are at the beginning of a word. David Ben Gurion answered – “Mar Pishman tsodek”, and that ended the discussion.

Yossi

From: Heb-naco On Behalf Of Gottschalk, Haim via Heb-naco
Sent: Tuesday, July 25, 2023 9:45 AM
To: Freedman, Vanessa <v.freedman at ucl.ac.uk<mailto:v.freedman at ucl.ac.uk>>; Hebrew Name Authority Funnel <heb-naco at lists.osu.edu<mailto:heb-naco at lists.osu.edu>>
Subject: Re: [Heb-NACO] Romanisation of בביזנטיון

Hi Vanessa, Grammatically speaking, I would Romanize it as be-Vizant. yun. It is a foreign loan word. However, that said, in check in our database for בברוקלין (in Brooklyn), I found the Romanization as bi-Bruḳlin. However, that said I also

Hi Vanessa,

Grammatically speaking, I would Romanize it as be-Vizant.yun. It is a foreign loan word. However, that said, in check in our database for בברוקלין (in Brooklyn), I found the Romanization as bi-Bruḳlin. However, that said I also search for בבני ברק and found bi-Vene Berak. My inclination would be to have the B instead of a V, for the sake of searching, similar to the idea of how we Romanize בירושלים as bi-Yerushalayim instead of birushalayim.

My 3.37 cents.

Best,
Haim
__________
Haim A. Gottschalk
Hebraica and Judaica Cataloging Librarian
Asian and Middle Eastern Division, Israel and Judaica Section
Onsite Mondays, Wednesdays, Thursdays, and alternate Fridays

The Library of Congress
101 Independence Ave, SE, LM-537
Washington, DC 20540-4222

Direct: 202-707-2498
hgot at loc.gov<mailto:hgot at loc.gov>

[cid:image001.jpg at 01D9BF05.675C3C60]

THIS EMAIL IS NOT CLASSIFIED
Expressing my views. Ideas & opinions in this email are not intended to represent those of the Library of Congress or its staff.
P Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail

From: Heb-naco <heb-naco-bounces at lists.osu.edu<mailto:heb-naco-bounces at lists.osu.edu>> On Behalf Of Freedman, Vanessa via Heb-naco
Sent: Tuesday, July 25, 2023 9:02 AM
To: Heb-NACO (heb-naco at lists.osu.edu<mailto:heb-naco at lists.osu.edu>) <heb-naco at lists.osu.edu<mailto:heb-naco at lists.osu.edu>>
Subject: [Heb-NACO] Romanisation of בביזנטיון

CAUTION: This email message has been received from an external source. Please use caution when opening attachments, or clicking on links.
How would you Romanise בביזנטיון (in Byzantium)? I would think be-Vizanṭyon but OCLC 1378074102 has be-Bizanṭyon. Would you retain the B after be- because it’s a foreign loan word? Thanks Vanessa Vanessa Freedman Subject Liaison Librarian: 
How would you Romanise  בביזנטיון (in Byzantium)? I would think be-Vizanṭyon but OCLC 1378074102 has be-Bizanṭyon. Would you retain the B after be- because it’s a foreign loan word?

Thanks

Vanessa

Vanessa Freedman
Subject Liaison Librarian: Hebrew & Jewish Studies

Pronouns: she/her
Work pattern: Tues-Thurs 10am to 6pm

Main Library
UCL Library Services
Library, Culture, Collections & Open Science
Gower Street
London
WC1E 6BT

Tel: 020 7679 2598
E-mail: v.freedman at ucl.ac.uk<mailto:v.freedman at ucl.ac.uk>
Twitter: @UCLHJSLibrary @vrfreedman
Website: https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.ucl.ac.uk/library__;!!KGKeukY!379YQkHzxzGandt1vZWtkvMcL4ckkqaSol7Bh9nfXb4-Zq2mx9IIhPCw6_QJfv8EWQCtkgGD3gKv2wLnOYJrhg$ <https://urldefense.com/v3/__http:/www.ucl.ac.uk/library__;!!KGKeukY!0NLGSmZCIJq7_oWDMaNiYxLaV6RJ4ntfT_nwD58UlBCk-TdFb_AShY4oAQlh3H3j88cBfRzqqTpsc-8MeYu3Yk7DjLA$>

**Please remember the environment and only print this if necessary**

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.osu.edu/pipermail/heb-naco/attachments/20230725/96312c6a/attachment-0001.html>
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: image001.jpg
Type: image/jpeg
Size: 2442 bytes
Desc: image001.jpg
URL: <http://lists.osu.edu/pipermail/heb-naco/attachments/20230725/96312c6a/attachment-0002.jpg>
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: Snap224.jpg
Type: image/jpeg
Size: 95056 bytes
Desc: Snap224.jpg
URL: <http://lists.osu.edu/pipermail/heb-naco/attachments/20230725/96312c6a/attachment-0003.jpg>