[Heb-NACO] [EXT] - Re: 046 Hebrew date coding in NARs

Tue Apr 27 16:48:26 EDT 2021

Thank you for the clarification, Jasmin.

On Tue, Apr 27, 2021 at 12:10 PM Shinohara, Jasmin <jshino at pobox.upenn.edu>
wrote:

> Dear friends,
>
>
>
> I’d like to thank you for participating in this discussion. We’ve heard
> back from LC, who after consulting with our colleagues in the IJ section,
> has reconsidered. This is the guidance the IJ section shared:
>
>
>
> For a specific day, follow the Gregorian calendar equivalent provided on
> standard date converters such as Heb-Cal. Do not worry about the few hours
> between nightfall and midnight. If the exact hour of the person’s date of
> birth or death is provided and that happens to be before midnight, then the
> cataloger would go with the day before. But we cannot routinely add the
> “or” construction to the day the way we do for the year.
>
>
>
> So, while from a NACO and EDTF standpoint it is *possible* to record the
> uncertainty presented by Hebrew dates (and this is NLI practice), from an
> LC/PCC standpoint, it is *not required* to so. In other words, feel free
> to continue with your current practice.
>
>
>
> Happy cataloging, Jasmin
>
>
>
> *From:* Ahava Cohen <Ahava.Cohen at nli.org.il>
> *Sent:* Tuesday, April 27, 2021 1:38 AM
> *To:* Shinohara, Jasmin <jshino at pobox.upenn.edu>; 'Hebrew Name Authority
> Funnel' <heb-naco at lists.osu.edu>; Marlene Schiffman <schiffma at yu.edu>;
> rtalbott at library.berkeley.edu
> *Subject:* RE: [Heb-NACO] [EXT] - Re: 046 Hebrew date coding in NARs
>
>
>
> Yossi cited our old work practice of 5000 and adding 1240, so I thought
> I'd chime in with NLI's current policy within our authority database – like
> the recommendation which started this thread, if all we have is a Hebrew
> date we do code the two possible dates in 046. It takes an extra few
> seconds and we prefer to preserve the information at hand, having had
> people of the same name with birthdates within the same month.
>
>
>
> - Ahava
>
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.nli.org.il/__;!!KGKeukY!mqda0zUh4ltP7NJ7xeufFaiIry9aC0iveKkTGYS2PHeUtgS3wrUI37F1gUR5DGVgA7_T$ >
>
>
>
> *Dr. Ahava Cohen  *  |Head
>
> Hebrew Catalogue Department
>
> Mobile: +972-54-549-3644
>
> Tel.:  +972-74-733-6231
>
> The National Library of Israel, Jerusalem
>
> *ahava.cohen at nli.org.il <ahava.cohen at nli.org.il>  **|*  *www.nli.org.il*
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://web.nli.org.il/sites/NLI/English/Pages/default.aspx__;!!KGKeukY!mqda0zUh4ltP7NJ7xeufFaiIry9aC0iveKkTGYS2PHeUtgS3wrUI37F1gUR5DK-DV8_c$ >
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>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Heb-naco [
> mailto:heb-naco-bounces+ahava.cohen=nli.org.il at lists.osu.edu
> <heb-naco-bounces+ahava.cohen=nli.org.il at lists.osu.edu>] *On Behalf Of *Shinohara,
> Jasmin via Heb-naco
> *Sent:* Tuesday, April 27, 2021 2:06 AM
> *To:* Marlene Schiffman; rtalbott at library.berkeley.edu
> *Cc:* Hebrew Name Authority Funnel
> *Subject:* Re: [Heb-NACO] [EXT] - Re: 046 Hebrew date coding in NARs
>
>
>
> I doubt Paul Frank reads Heb-NACO. I am working on a draft with your
> responses and counter-arguments.
>
>
>
> Thanks, Jasmin
>
>
>
> *From:* Marlene Schiffman <schiffma at yu.edu>
> *Sent:* Monday, April 26, 2021 7:05 PM
> *To:* rtalbott at library.berkeley.edu; Shinohara, Jasmin <
> jshino at pobox.upenn.edu>
> *Cc:* Hebrew Name Authority Funnel <heb-naco at lists.osu.edu>; Galron,
> Joseph <galron.1 at osu.edu>
> *Subject:* RE: [EXT] - Re: [Heb-NACO] 046 Hebrew date coding in NARs
>
>
>
> Maybe we should send this correspondence to Paul Frank? Does he read
> Heb-NACO?
>
>
>
> Sent from Mail
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986__;!!KGKeukY!hx0QYJPGVeB1Jg3zYS6GBwNaCTscsu0IKhBpyWQYCPOEysnigfp0knYfauNJsvY6eIW0$>
> for Windows 10
>
>
>
> *From: *Robert M. TALBOTT <rtalbott at library.berkeley.edu>
> *Sent: *Friday, April 23, 2021 8:39 PM
> *To: *Shinohara, Jasmin <jshino at pobox.upenn.edu>
> *Cc: *Hebrew Name Authority Funnel <heb-naco at lists.osu.edu>; Galron,
> Joseph <galron.1 at osu.edu>; Marlene Schiffman <schiffma at yu.edu>
> *Subject: *[EXT] - Re: [Heb-NACO] 046 Hebrew date coding in NARs
>
>
>
> ***External Email***
>
> I was under the impression that rules didn't go into effect until
> published.
>
>
>
> On Fri, Apr 23, 2021 at 11:58 AM Shinohara, Jasmin <jshino at pobox.upenn.edu>
> wrote:
>
> Dear colleagues, I regret that the guidance coming from LC/PCC is not more
> popular among you. Nevertheless, our NACO work is bound by LC/PCC policy.
> As such, henceforth, please code Hebrew dates that are not substantiated by
> Gregorian dates as uncertain in NACO records.
>
>
>
> Thanks and kol tuv, Jasmin
>
>
>
> *From:* Heb-naco <heb-naco-bounces at lists.osu.edu> *On Behalf Of *Robert
> M. TALBOTT via Heb-naco
> *Sent:* Friday, April 23, 2021 9:34 AM
> *To:* Galron, Joseph <galron.1 at osu.edu>; Hebrew Name Authority Funnel <
> heb-naco at lists.osu.edu>
> *Subject:* Re: [Heb-NACO] 046 Hebrew date coding in NARs
>
>
>
> I agree with Yosi. There's no real benefit in ramping up the complexity of
> the 046 to cover the possibility that someone was born before sunset.
>
>
>
> Bob
>
>
>
> On Thu, Apr 22, 2021 at 8:50 PM Galron, Joseph via Heb-naco <
> heb-naco at lists.osu.edu> wrote:
>
> I encountered this issue for my Lexicon as well for entering dates in
> Wikidata (and encyclopedic entries in the Hebrew Wikipedia).
>
> My opinion is that we should put the later date and only in cases we know
> the two dates then to prefer the Hebrew date. Our life is complicated
> enough. We have a tool to convert Hebrew calendar to the Gregorian calendar
> and vis-a-versa https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.hebcal.com/converter__;!!KGKeukY!mqda0zUh4ltP7NJ7xeufFaiIry9aC0iveKkTGYS2PHeUtgS3wrUI37F1gUR5DF6kmprh$ 
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https*3A*2F*2Furldefense.com*2Fv3*2F__https*3A*2Fwww.hebcal.com*2Fconverter__*3B!!KGKeukY!g6jo72cqPGAkRZsVt0EeQnhrZu9zS3cFAFARzc0i99f1WheV_NlPXA9gGVhfQlTvnqs5*24&data=04*7C01*7Cschiffma*40yu.edu*7Caaf82c40e24340a3f72a08d906b96a34*7C04c70eb48f2648079934e02e89266ad0*7C1*7C1*7C637548215708512401*7CUnknown*7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0*3D*7C2000&sdata=ArxPCz5a8BQGxlZ5oP8wjeFkUSVuuA1mEqHnwaAlAf0*3D&reserved=0__;JSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSU!!KGKeukY!hx0QYJPGVeB1Jg3zYS6GBwNaCTscsu0IKhBpyWQYCPOEysnigfp0knYfauNJsuapEJ8N$>
>
> Is it really critical to know if someone was born in the evening before
> sunset or after sunset? (the only case for us will be if someone was
> born/died on December 31, 1969 or January 1, 1970 – this changes the
> heading in the 100 field).
>
> I have so many stories I encountered while doing my biographical research
> for “my authors” where the Hebrew date is totally different then the
> Gregorian date on tombstones, in encyclopedias (Tidhar for example),
> Lexicons (Kressel and others). I saw letters by people who wrote that their
> Zeide told them they were born on Erev Shabbes of Hanukka, of תר"ע  1910
> (Erev Shabbes of Hanukka was December 1909 and not 1910)
>
> Remember – we have a backlog of Sforim we need to catalog – not too much
> time to spend on the issue if someone was born or died before or after
> sunset.
>
>
>
> At this opportunity I invite you to view my working document in which I
> record the biographical information
>
>
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1IPXgRBQE689SB8GpXKHjmSIlNP50n7hAJQEHaoVt8U4/edit?usp=sharing__;!!KGKeukY!mqda0zUh4ltP7NJ7xeufFaiIry9aC0iveKkTGYS2PHeUtgS3wrUI37F1gUR5DA2ELTi4$ 
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>
>
>
> My two Groschen to the issue
>
>
>
> Yossi
>
>
>
>
>
> יוסי גלרון-גולדשלגר
>
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> Йозеф Галрон Гольдшлегер
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>
> *From:* Heb-naco *On Behalf Of *Shinohara, Jasmin via Heb-naco
> *Sent:* Thursday, April 22, 2021 5:32 PM
> *To:* Hebrew Name Authority Funnel <heb-naco at lists.osu.edu>
> *Subject:* [Heb-NACO] 046 Hebrew date coding in NARs
>
>
>
> Hi, folks, I hope this email finds you all well.
>
>
>
> I recently had the opportunity to get some guidance on how to code dates
> in the authority 046 when the date/s available is/are only using the Hebrew
> calendar. This was my question:
>
>
>
> “Hebrew dates span two calendar days and, as such, two Gregorian dates.
> Till now, the majority of catalogers have made an assumption that the
> Hebrew date is the latter of the two Gregorian dates and only coded that
> date in the 046 (indicating certainty). The question is, is such practice
> ok/correct? Or should catalogers be erring on the side of caution and
> coding the 046 date as uncertain, e.g. [2012-07-31, 2012-08-01], unless a
> Gregorian date is also given to confirm the date? I don’t recall seeing any
> guidance on this subject. Can you please advise?”
>
>
>
> This was the response from LC:
>
>
>
> “What an interesting question about EDTF, especially since it was a topic
> here at LC a couple of weeks ago (not about Hebrew dates, but about what
> catalogers are supposed to do in the 046 field in general). I would err
> on the side of caution and give both dates in the 046 field when the
> Gregorian date is not known. Come to think of it, maybe I will add
> something about this to the DCM Z1 046 update that I am working on as a
> result of that meeting we had here a couple of weeks ago. That will
> document it.” (highlight added)
>
>
>
> Please let me know if you have any questions.
>
>
>
> Best wishes, Jasmin
>
>
>
> ---
>
> Jasmin Shinohara
>
> Hebraica Cataloging Librarian
>
> University of Pennsylvania
>
> 551.1 Van Pelt-Dietrich Library Center
>
> 3420 Walnut Street
>
> Philadelphia, PA 19104-6206
>
> T. 215-746-6397
>
> jshino at upenn.edu
>
>
>
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>
>
>
> --
>
> Bob Talbott
>
> Hebraica cataloger/Curatorial Assistant to the Judaica Collection
>
> UC Berkeley
>
> 250 Moffitt
>
> Berkeley, CA 94720
>
>
>
> Lue musaraba shu biburueada Bilgameshe nam habadabkure.
>
>
>
> --
>
> Bob Talbott
>
> Hebraica cataloger/Curatorial Assistant to the Judaica Collection
>
> UC Berkeley
>
> 250 Moffitt
>
> Berkeley, CA 94720
>
>
>
> Lue musaraba shu biburueada Bilgameshe nam habadabkure.
>
>
>

-- 
Bob Talbott

Hebraica cataloger/Curatorial Assistant to the Judaica Collection

UC Berkeley

250 Moffitt

Berkeley, CA 94720

Lue musaraba shu biburueada Bilgameshe nam habadabkure.
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