[Heb-NACO] vocalizing a word question
Shinohara, Jasmin
jshino at pobox.upenn.edu
Fri Jul 28 09:47:59 EDT 2017
I second Janet’s romanization (for whatever that’s worth … ☺). Shabat shalom, Jasmin
From: Heb-naco [mailto:heb-naco-bounces+jshino=pobox.upenn.edu at lists.osu.edu] On Behalf Of Janet Shamir
Sent: Friday, July 28, 2017 7:55 AM
To: Hebrew Name Authority Funnel
Subject: Re: [Heb-NACO] vocalizing a word question
The online Rav-Milim dictionary and Morfix are both products of Melingo Ltd., a subsidiary of Britannica. Melingo owns the sites hosting those two dictionaries as well as a few other Hebrew language related sites.
https://melingo.com/en/
דייט is not a Hebrew word. It's a common transliteration of an English word, widely used by Israelis, and pronounced approximately as "date" is pronounced by American English speakers. Personally, I have never encountered an Israeli who went on a "det" ☺.
Here are a few minutes from an Israeli T.V. show. You can see what Israeli children think of dates and hear how the children (and the presenter) pronounce the word.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p9TTGaXwOnk
*Any Hebrew letter with a Sheva under it is consonantal* and cannot be ignored in Romanization.
The way I see it, using a y to indicate the Yod or ignoring the Sheva (and the Yod) are both against our Romanization policy.
• There is a Dalet. There's a Tsere under the Dalet. *de* (ALA-LC Hebraica Romanization Tables, HCM p. 10)
• There's a Yod. There's a Sheva under it, which indicates that it's consonantal. This consonantal Yod is not followed by a vowel. *i* (HCM, P. 19)
• There's a final Tet. *ṭ* (ALA-LC Hebraica Romanization Tables, HCM p. 10)
I think that the issues of Yod, Sheva and foreign/loan words should all be rethought and/or revised. They keep leading to problems.
Shabbat shalom,
Janet
---
Janet Shamir
Hebrew Cataloging Department
National Library of Israel
From: Heb-naco [mailto:heb-naco-bounces+janet.shamir=nli.org.il at lists.osu.edu] On Behalf Of Heidi G Lerner
Sent: Wednesday, July 26, 2017 8:27 PM
To: Hebrew Name Authority Funnel
Subject: Re: [Heb-NACO] vocalizing a word question
Hi all, Rav-Milim was discussed at a 2006 AJL RAS Cataloging Committee Meeting. Here is the record of what was decided.
"Hebrew dictionaries to supplement Even-Shoshan need to be authorized, especially for newer words. Rav milim and Morfix (online) were suggested. Use of these can be recommended for libraries with access to them."
I strongly encourage the cataloging committee to vote on the use of Rav-Milim (not sure about the strength of the relationship between Morfix and Rav-Milim, does anybody know)? We need to have an authorized source to consult when vocalizing and transcribing new words that have entered the Hebrew language regardless of origin.
I much prefer the romanization of "דייט" or "דיט" to be "deṭ".
I have never encountered a Hebrew word vocalized as "ey". Anyone seeing "deyṭ" would consider it a Yiddish word; if the word is encountered in a Yiddish context then I would romanize it as "Deyt".
Best, Heidi
Heidi G. Lerner
Metadata Librarian for Hebraica and Judaica
Metadata Dept.
Stanford University Libraries
Stanford, CA 94305-6004
ph: 650-725-9953
fax: 650-725-1120
e-mail: lerner at stanford.edu<mailto:lerner at stanford.edu>
________________________________
From: Heb-naco <heb-naco-bounces+lerner=stanford.edu at lists.osu.edu<mailto:heb-naco-bounces+lerner=stanford.edu at lists.osu.edu>> on behalf of Dickel, Geraldine <geraldine.dickel at yale.edu<mailto:geraldine.dickel at yale.edu>>
Sent: Wednesday, July 26, 2017 6:37 AM
To: Hebrew Name Authority Funnel
Subject: Re: [Heb-NACO] vocalizing a word question
So then the Romanization should be deyṭ?
Should the Cataloging Committee hold a vote on using Rav Milim or Morfix as an authorized source for Romanization of words that are not found in the most recent edition of Even-Shoshan? Or should we wait until next summer’s cataloging committee meeting to discuss the question further?
Best wishes,
Jerry Anne Dickel
Hebraica Catalog librarian
Yale University Library
From: Heb-naco [mailto:heb-naco-bounces at lists.osu.edu] On Behalf Of Janet Shamir
Sent: Wednesday, July 26, 2017 8:43 AM
To: Hebrew Name Authority Funnel <heb-naco at lists.osu.edu<mailto:heb-naco at lists.osu.edu>>
Subject: Re: [Heb-NACO] vocalizing a word question
I'm sorry, but I disagree. This is not a case of Tsere Male. It is a Tsere (Romanized as e), followed by a consonantal Yod (i). The Yod is not part of the nikkud and therefore should be Romanized separately.
Tsere Male is Romanized as "e" because according to the Sepharadi tradition it is *not* vocalized as a diphthong. The correspondence with the Academy of the Hebrew language, quoted by Haim, shows that the Sheva under the Yod inדייט is there *to indicate the diphthong*, and that it is *not* vocalized as the Yod in בית, and therefore should not be Romanized the same way.
---
Janet Shamir
Hebrew Cataloging Department
National Library of Israel
From: Heb-naco [mailto:heb-naco-bounces+janet.shamir=nli.org.il at lists.osu.edu] On Behalf Of Yossi Galron
Sent: Tuesday, July 25, 2017 4:46 PM
To: Hebrew Name Authority Funnel
Subject: Re: [Heb-NACO] vocalizing a word question
So according to our rules (if there is a Tsere under the Dalet), we have to romanize it as Det.
Am I correct?
Yossi
Joseph (Yossi) Galron-Goldschläger
E-Mail: galron.1 at osu.edu<mailto:galron.1 at osu.edu> or jgalron at gmail.com<mailto:jgalron at gmail.com>
Tel.: (614) 292-3362, Fax: (614)292-1918
Lexicon of Modern Hebrew Literature: http://go.osu.edu/hebrewlit<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__go.osu.edu_hebrewlit&d=DwMGaQ&c=cjytLXgP8ixuoHflwc-poQ&r=cX-JfhQlUwhLVWvvsRM8LpRtWoJnc-1xOAkRHgoNXs0&m=v2JJTzWeGRAQyvWjy0aNiJ67X50klm8iIx6Buhil0PI&s=1oOCtbEkWR3B7Si95kJR1BTlNxces8lWpNM1IVEgWu8&e=>
On Tue, Jul 25, 2017 at 9:27 AM, Gottschalk, Haim <hgot at loc.gov<mailto:hgot at loc.gov>> wrote:
According to an email correspondence with the Academy of the Hebrew Language:
“The word דייט is vocalized with צירי under the דל"ת and (silent) שווא under the יו"ד, thus: דֵּיְט.”
And a follow up email
“the שווא under the יו"ד, though silent, is there to indicate that the יו"ד *is* pronounced -- i.e., to indicate the diphthong "ey" ("deyt"). "Native" Hebrew words, by comparison, never have a שווא under a יו"ד that follows צירי (compare -בֵּית = "bet").”
Haim
From: Heb-naco [mailto:heb-naco-bounces+hgot<mailto:heb-naco-bounces%2Bhgot>=loc.gov at lists.osu.edu<mailto:loc.gov at lists.osu.edu>] On Behalf Of Janet Shamir
Sent: Tuesday, July 25, 2017 9:06 AM
To: Hebrew Name Authority Funnel
Subject: Re: [Heb-NACO] vocalizing a word question
Rav-Milim and Morfix normalize it to דֵּיְט, with a Sheva under the Yod which indicates that it's consonantal. This is in accordance with the transliteration rules of the Academy of the Hebrew Language for foreign names (which do not necessarily apply for loan words, but are often used for them). In the case of a word without nikkud, those rules require a double Yod to indicate the original pronunciation.
A double-Yod is common in loan words, such as טייפor דייט, as a transliteration of the diphthong EY.
They are pronounced with a double Sheva at the end, both silent, as two consequent Shevaim at the end of a word are always quiescent.
In my opinion, Yiddish Romanization should only be used for Yiddish words, since "a distinctively Yiddish name in a Hebrew context may be romanized as Yiddish" (hence, a name/word which is not distinctively Yiddish may not be Romanized as such).
If the Romanization attempts to represent the sound of the Hebrew words as they are pronounced by modern Israeli speakers, then loan words which contain a double Yod should be Romanized according to this pronunciation.
According to the ALA/LC Romanization rules, the Yod in Hebrew is Romanized as "y" only when it is followed by a vowel. However, the form daiṭ would be vocalized as (IPA) /daɪt/ instead of /deɪt/.
Thus, I would Romanize טייפ and דייט as ṭeip and deiṭ, and words with the diphthong AY, such as בייט (byte) or טיים (time), as baiṭ and ṭaim, as the diphthong is Romanization in ALA-LC Romanization rules.
Sometimes, יי is used in loan words as part of the Hebrew transliteration of "-tion", in which case they are pronounced (and in my opinion, should be Romanized as) "shen": פרוטקשיין, קונקשיין, קולקשיין (protection, connection and collection).
As for using Rav-Milim, I think it is a reliable source for the vocalization of contemporary Hebrew and loan words. Its editors can be contacted online with questions/corrections.
Their policy is described here:
http://www.ravmilim.co.il/adv/general/index.htm#m<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.ravmilim.co.il_adv_general_index.htm-23m&d=DwMGaQ&c=cjytLXgP8ixuoHflwc-poQ&r=cX-JfhQlUwhLVWvvsRM8LpRtWoJnc-1xOAkRHgoNXs0&m=v2JJTzWeGRAQyvWjy0aNiJ67X50klm8iIx6Buhil0PI&s=F1lPlYpbMhMXa9wLazXM0htaalJbh-CEZhP8f7rM8pI&e=>
---
Janet Shamir
Hebrew Cataloging Department
National Library of Israel
From: Heb-naco [mailto:heb-naco-bounces+janet.shamir=nli.org.il at lists.osu.edu] On Behalf Of Heidi G Lerner
Sent: Thursday, July 20, 2017 11:37 PM
To: Hebrew Name Authority Funnel
Subject: Re: [Heb-NACO] vocalizing a word question
mea culpa:
in Rav-Milim and Morfix דייט has been normalized to דיט, so it should be romanized as "deṭ'
I would like propose that we adopt Rav-Milim as another stanford for romanization/vocalization for the more contemporary words that have entered the Hebrew language since E-S' last edition of 2007 and do not appear there or in Alcalay.
i believe that we talked about this in years gone by.
Heidi G. Lerner
Metadata Librarian for Hebraica and Judaica
Metadata Dept.
Stanford University Libraries
Stanford, CA 94305-6004
ph: 650-725-9953<tel:(650)%20725-9953>
fax: 650-725-1120<tel:(650)%20725-1120>
e-mail: lerner at stanford.edu<mailto:lerner at stanford.edu>
________________________________
From: Heb-naco <heb-naco-bounces at lists.osu.edu<mailto:heb-naco-bounces at lists.osu.edu>> on behalf of Yossi Galron <jgalron at gmail.com<mailto:jgalron at gmail.com>>
Sent: Thursday, July 20, 2017 1:31 PM
To: Hebrew Name Authority Funnel
Subject: Re: [Heb-NACO] vocalizing a word question
Our rule is that it should be Dait (two Yods are "ai")
Yossi
Joseph (Yossi) Galron-Goldschläger
E-Mail: galron.1 at osu.edu<mailto:galron.1 at osu.edu> or jgalron at gmail.com<mailto:jgalron at gmail.com>
Tel.: (614) 292-3362<tel:(614)%20292-3362>, Fax: (614)292-1918<tel:(614)%20292-1918>
Lexicon of Modern Hebrew Literature: http://go.osu.edu/hebrewlit<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__go.osu.edu_hebrewlit&d=DwMGaQ&c=cjytLXgP8ixuoHflwc-poQ&r=cX-JfhQlUwhLVWvvsRM8LpRtWoJnc-1xOAkRHgoNXs0&m=v2JJTzWeGRAQyvWjy0aNiJ67X50klm8iIx6Buhil0PI&s=1oOCtbEkWR3B7Si95kJR1BTlNxces8lWpNM1IVEgWu8&e=>
On Thu, Jul 20, 2017 at 4:28 PM, Gottschalk, Haim <hgot at loc.gov<mailto:hgot at loc.gov>> wrote:
Dear colleagues:
How would you vocalize דייט? I could not the word in the dictionaries, nor find it vocalized in worldcat, nor on the internet. The word is pronounced as “date” as going out on a date. I have Romanized it as “deyit”.
Thanks in advance.
Haim
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