[Heb-NACO] words starting with דרמ-

Wed Jan 18 14:06:46 EST 2017

Return to our discussion regarding words that are Greek/Latin in origin.
This time about פרוזה = Prozah:
So we agreed that it will be Prozah and not Perozah. Now what about cases
such as: בפרוזה = Bi-prozah or Ba-prozah: according to Even Shoshan (2003
edition), vol. 5, page 1528 (see https://goo.gl/photos/9pHnfcYmiwpUsSgh9)
it will be Bi-prozah and not Bi-frozah.
Are we all on the same understanding?

I just cataloged the last book by Nitza Ben-Dov - see:
https://library.osu.edu/projects/hebrew-lexicon/01948002.php
OCLC # 968894063

Yossi

Joseph (Yossi) Galron-Goldschläger
E-Mail: galron.1 at osu.edu  or jgalron at gmail.com
Tel.: (614) 292-3362,  Fax: (614)292-1918
Lexicon of Modern Hebrew Literature: http://go.osu.edu/hebrewlit

On Mon, May 2, 2016 at 4:38 PM, Shinohara, Jasmin <jshino at pobox.upenn.edu>
wrote:

> Thank you, Heidi J.
>
>
>
> Let me know, please, when last year’s minutes and the agenda for this year
> are ready for posting on the wiki.
>
>
>
> Best wishes, Jasmin
>
>
>
> *From:* Heb-naco [mailto:heb-naco-bounces+jshino=pobox.upenn.edu at lists.
> osu.edu] *On Behalf Of *Heidi G Lerner
> *Sent:* Monday, May 02, 2016 12:47 PM
>
> *To:* Hebrew Name Authority Funnel
> *Subject:* Re: [Heb-NACO] words starting with דרמ-
>
>
>
> I will add this issue to the agenda for the AJL RAS Cataloging meeting in
> June for a general group discussion.
>
>
>
> After sharing our colleagues thoughts, the committee will revisit the
> issue and make a new decision. If we change the current guidelines, the
> changes will be reflected in the the upcoming update to RDA Hebraica
> cataloging (due Summer 2016).
>
>
>
> Heidi G. Lerner
>
> Metadata Librarian for Hebraica and Judaica
>
> Metadata Dept.
>
> Stanford University Libraries
>
> Stanford, CA 94305-6004
>
> ph: 650-725-9953 <(650)%20725-9953>
>
> fax: 650-725-1120 <(650)%20725-1120>
>
> e-mail: lerner at stanford.edu
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> *From:* Heb-naco <heb-naco-bounces+lerner=stanford.edu at lists.osu.edu> on
> behalf of Yossi Galron <jgalron at gmail.com>
> *Sent:* Monday, May 2, 2016 9:25 AM
> *To:* Hebrew Name Authority Funnel
> *Subject:* Re: [Heb-NACO] words starting with דרמ-
>
>
>
> Although I supported keeping the status quo on Pesefas/Psefas - I agree
> now that we need to change our policy and remove the Alcalay rule for those
> words that are Greek/Latin in origin.
>
> The reason I voted to keep the status quo for Pesefas/Psefas was the much
> work it would bring on us in cleaning up the database. But it looks that we
> are coming back to the same question again and again and it's time to solve
> it.
>
> Let's change all Dermah to Dramah and Pesikhologyah to Psikhologyah -
> ve-yavo al Tsiyon go'el.
>
>
>
> Yossi
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Joseph (Yossi) Galron-Goldschläger
> E-Mail: galron.1 at osu.edu  or jgalron at gmail.com
> Tel.: (614) 292-3362,  Fax: (614)292-1918 <(614)%20292-1918>
> Lexicon of Modern Hebrew Literature: http://go.osu.edu/hebrewlit
>
>
>
> On Mon, May 2, 2016 at 11:54 AM, Shinohara, Jasmin <jshino at pobox.upenn.edu>
> wrote:
>
> Yes, the Cataloging Committee did recently review psefas/pesefas, but IIRC
> the decision was to maintain the status quo.  I don’t recall what factors
> went into making that decision.
>
>
>
> As for following Alcalay’s vocalization, I’m not sure how that’s helpful
> since he can be so inconsistent.  Take the example of [psych], for which he
> has the following entries:
>
>
>
> Psikhah (for Psyche, myth.)
>
> Psikhoanaliṭi
>
> Psikhoanaliṭiḳai
>
> Psikho’analisah (-zah)
>
> Psikhogeni
>
> Psikhozah
>
> Psikhografah
>
> Psikhografyah
>
> Psikhoṭekhni
>
> Psikhonṭekhniḳah
>
> Psikholog
>
> Psikhologi
>
>
>
> BUT, the first exception with a sheva
>
>
>
> Pesikhologyah, followed by a bunch of different types of psychology, NONE
> of one which have a sheva under the peh:
>
> Psikhologyah geneṭit/hevdelit/ḥinukhit/le-ta’aśiyah/mashṿah/ and on,
> and on.
>
>
>
> THEN, another exception with a sheva
>
>
>
> Pesikhologizatsyah, followed by more entries with NO sheva:
>
> Psikhologism
>
> Psikhosomaṭi
>
> Psikhofisi
>
> Psikhofisikah
>
> Psikhopat
>
> Psikhopatologi
>
> Psikhopatologyah
>
>
>
> THEN, a final exception with a sheva
>
>
>
> Pesikhopati, followed by more entries with NO sheva:
>
> Psikhopatyah
>
> Psikhi
>
> Psikhi’aṭor
>
> Psikhi’aṭri, and the last,
>
> Psikhi’aṭriyah
>
>
>
> I cannot find any logic behind which words are vocalized and which are
> not, but it contradicts Heidi’s principle below that words based on a word
> with a sheva would also have a sheva.
>
>
>
> Nevertheless, Alcalay is consistent with his entries for [dram], which
> makes my question moot, if not food for thought…
>
> Deramah
>
> Deramaṭurg
>
> Dermaṭurgiyah
>
> Deramaṭizatsyah
>
> Deramati
>
> Deramatiyut
>
>
>
> (I didn’t see them till now, which is what prompted the original email.
> Apologies, Jasmin)
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Heb-naco [mailto:heb-naco-bounces+jshino=pobox.upenn.edu at lists.
> osu.edu] *On Behalf Of *Joan Biella
> *Sent:* Friday, April 29, 2016 7:11 PM
> *To:* Hebrew Name Authority Funnel
> *Subject:* Re: [Heb-NACO] words starting with דרמ-
>
>
>
> The rule being followed here is the one that says Alcalay's vocalization
> determines the romanization of words with ambiguous initial shevas.  If his
> dictionary prints the sheva, we romanize it as "e."  This rule was laid
> down for the benefit of catalogers who don't have access to spoken Hebrew
> sources, and ensures a standard romanization for everyone.
>
> Perhaps it is time to reconsider this rule, as some catalogers in some
> circumstances certainly find it annoying.  The recent exchange about
> psefas/pesefas dealt with the same issue.  Should this be discussed
> seriously by the cataloging committee?
>
> Joan
>
>
>
> On Fri, Apr 29, 2016 at 6:34 AM, Neil Manel Frau-Cortes <nfrau at umd.edu>
> wrote:
>
> No offense, but have you ever tried to explain the crazy "deramah"
> exception to somebody who is not a Hebrew cataloger?
>
>
>
> Whoever has the power could just have eliminated the exception instead of
> adding to it.
>
>
>
> All linguistic systems tend to regularization
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regularization_(linguistics)>. In any
> codification system, the more exceptions you add to rules, the less
> effective the code is.
>
>
>
> שבת שלום ומעדים לשמחה
>
>
>
> Neil
>
>
>
> On Thu, Apr 28, 2016 at 5:44 PM, Heidi G Lerner <lerner at stanford.edu>
> wrote:
>
> I would certainly think so. I can't think why not.
>
>
>
> The wod, while not of themselves completely foreign words: they are based
> on one.
>
>
>
> Just my thoughts.
>
>
>
> Best, Heidi
>
>
>
> Heidi G. Lerner
>
> Metadata Librarian for Hebraica and Judaica
>
> Metadata Dept.
>
> Stanford University Libraries
>
> Stanford, CA 94305-6004
>
> ph: 650-725-9953
>
> fax: 650-725-1120
>
> e-mail: lerner at stanford.edu
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> *From:* Shinohara, Jasmin <jshino at pobox.upenn.edu>
> *Sent:* Thursday, April 28, 2016 2:13 PM
> *To:* Hebrew Name Authority Funnel
> *Cc:* Heidi G Lerner
> *Subject:* words starting with דרמ-
>
>
>
> HCM2 clearly states דרמה as exception to vocalization of foreign loan
> words (“first sheṿa in a foreign loan word with an initial consonantal
> cluster is generally treated as a sheṿa naḥ…” cf. p. 19).  Do other words
> starting with that “root” follow that same exception, e.g. דרמטורגיה,
> דרמטי, דרמטיזציה, etc.?
>
> Thank, Jasmin
>
>
>
> ---
>
> Jasmin Shinohara
>
> Hebraica Cataloging Librarian
>
> University of Pennsylvania
>
> Van Pelt-Dietrich Library Center
>
> 3420 Walnut Street
>
> Philadelphia, PA 19104-6206
>
> T. 215-746-6397
>
> F. 215-573-9610
>
> jshino at upenn.edu
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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> Heb-naco at lists.osu.edu
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>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> *Neil M. Frau-Cortes, Ph.D.*
>
> Judaica, Hebraica and Metadata Cataloger
>
> McKeldin Library
>
> University of Maryland
> College Park, MD 20742
> Phone (301) 405-9337
>
> nfrau at umd.edu
>
>
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