[Heb-NACO] words starting with דרמ-

[Joan Biella]

For what it's worth, this former cataloger agrees with Yossi.

Excelsior!

Joan


On Mon, May 2, 2016 at 9:25 AM, Yossi Galron <jgalron at gmail.com> wrote:

> Although I supported keeping the status quo on Pesefas/Psefas - I agree
> now that we need to change our policy and remove the Alcalay rule for those
> words that are Greek/Latin in origin.
> The reason I voted to keep the status quo for Pesefas/Psefas was the much
> work it would bring on us in cleaning up the database. But it looks that we
> are coming back to the same question again and again and it's time to solve
> it.
> Let's change all Dermah to Dramah and Pesikhologyah to Psikhologyah -
> ve-yavo al Tsiyon go'el.
>
> Yossi
>
>
>
> Joseph (Yossi) Galron-Goldschläger
> E-Mail: galron.1 at osu.edu  or jgalron at gmail.com
> Tel.: (614) 292-3362,  Fax: (614)292-1918
> Lexicon of Modern Hebrew Literature: http://go.osu.edu/hebrewlit
>
> On Mon, May 2, 2016 at 11:54 AM, Shinohara, Jasmin <jshino at pobox.upenn.edu
> > wrote:
>
>> Yes, the Cataloging Committee did recently review psefas/pesefas, but
>> IIRC the decision was to maintain the status quo.  I don’t recall what
>> factors went into making that decision.
>>
>>
>>
>> As for following Alcalay’s vocalization, I’m not sure how that’s helpful
>> since he can be so inconsistent.  Take the example of [psych], for which he
>> has the following entries:
>>
>>
>>
>> Psikhah (for Psyche, myth.)
>>
>> Psikhoanaliṭi
>>
>> Psikhoanaliṭiḳai
>>
>> Psikho’analisah (-zah)
>>
>> Psikhogeni
>>
>> Psikhozah
>>
>> Psikhografah
>>
>> Psikhografyah
>>
>> Psikhoṭekhni
>>
>> Psikhonṭekhniḳah
>>
>> Psikholog
>>
>> Psikhologi
>>
>>
>>
>> BUT, the first exception with a sheva
>>
>>
>>
>> Pesikhologyah, followed by a bunch of different types of psychology, NONE
>> of one which have a sheva under the peh:
>>
>> Psikhologyah geneṭit/hevdelit/ḥinukhit/le-ta’aśiyah/mashṿah/ and on,
>> and on.
>>
>>
>>
>> THEN, another exception with a sheva
>>
>>
>>
>> Pesikhologizatsyah, followed by more entries with NO sheva:
>>
>> Psikhologism
>>
>> Psikhosomaṭi
>>
>> Psikhofisi
>>
>> Psikhofisikah
>>
>> Psikhopat
>>
>> Psikhopatologi
>>
>> Psikhopatologyah
>>
>>
>>
>> THEN, a final exception with a sheva
>>
>>
>>
>> Pesikhopati, followed by more entries with NO sheva:
>>
>> Psikhopatyah
>>
>> Psikhi
>>
>> Psikhi’aṭor
>>
>> Psikhi’aṭri, and the last,
>>
>> Psikhi’aṭriyah
>>
>>
>>
>> I cannot find any logic behind which words are vocalized and which are
>> not, but it contradicts Heidi’s principle below that words based on a word
>> with a sheva would also have a sheva.
>>
>>
>>
>> Nevertheless, Alcalay is consistent with his entries for [dram], which
>> makes my question moot, if not food for thought…
>>
>> Deramah
>>
>> Deramaṭurg
>>
>> Dermaṭurgiyah
>>
>> Deramaṭizatsyah
>>
>> Deramati
>>
>> Deramatiyut
>>
>>
>>
>> (I didn’t see them till now, which is what prompted the original email.
>> Apologies, Jasmin)
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* Heb-naco [mailto:heb-naco-bounces+jshino=
>> pobox.upenn.edu at lists.osu.edu] *On Behalf Of *Joan Biella
>> *Sent:* Friday, April 29, 2016 7:11 PM
>> *To:* Hebrew Name Authority Funnel
>> *Subject:* Re: [Heb-NACO] words starting with דרמ-
>>
>>
>>
>> The rule being followed here is the one that says Alcalay's vocalization
>> determines the romanization of words with ambiguous initial shevas.  If his
>> dictionary prints the sheva, we romanize it as "e."  This rule was laid
>> down for the benefit of catalogers who don't have access to spoken Hebrew
>> sources, and ensures a standard romanization for everyone.
>>
>> Perhaps it is time to reconsider this rule, as some catalogers in some
>> circumstances certainly find it annoying.  The recent exchange about
>> psefas/pesefas dealt with the same issue.  Should this be discussed
>> seriously by the cataloging committee?
>>
>> Joan
>>
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Apr 29, 2016 at 6:34 AM, Neil Manel Frau-Cortes <nfrau at umd.edu>
>> wrote:
>>
>> No offense, but have you ever tried to explain the crazy "deramah"
>> exception to somebody who is not a Hebrew cataloger?
>>
>>
>>
>> Whoever has the power could just have eliminated the exception instead of
>> adding to it.
>>
>>
>>
>> All linguistic systems tend to regularization
>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regularization_(linguistics)>. In any
>> codification system, the more exceptions you add to rules, the less
>> effective the code is.
>>
>>
>>
>> שבת שלום ומעדים לשמחה
>>
>>
>>
>> Neil
>>
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Apr 28, 2016 at 5:44 PM, Heidi G Lerner <lerner at stanford.edu>
>> wrote:
>>
>> I would certainly think so. I can't think why not.
>>
>>
>>
>> The wod, while not of themselves completely foreign words: they are based
>> on one.
>>
>>
>>
>> Just my thoughts.
>>
>>
>>
>> Best, Heidi
>>
>>
>>
>> Heidi G. Lerner
>>
>> Metadata Librarian for Hebraica and Judaica
>>
>> Metadata Dept.
>>
>> Stanford University Libraries
>>
>> Stanford, CA 94305-6004
>>
>> ph: 650-725-9953
>>
>> fax: 650-725-1120
>>
>> e-mail: lerner at stanford.edu
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> *From:* Shinohara, Jasmin <jshino at pobox.upenn.edu>
>> *Sent:* Thursday, April 28, 2016 2:13 PM
>> *To:* Hebrew Name Authority Funnel
>> *Cc:* Heidi G Lerner
>> *Subject:* words starting with דרמ-
>>
>>
>>
>> HCM2 clearly states דרמה as exception to vocalization of foreign loan
>> words (“first sheṿa in a foreign loan word with an initial consonantal
>> cluster is generally treated as a sheṿa naḥ…” cf. p. 19).  Do other
>> words starting with that “root” follow that same exception, e.g. דרמטורגיה,
>> דרמטי, דרמטיזציה, etc.?
>>
>> Thank, Jasmin
>>
>>
>>
>> ---
>>
>> Jasmin Shinohara
>>
>> Hebraica Cataloging Librarian
>>
>> University of Pennsylvania
>>
>> Van Pelt-Dietrich Library Center
>>
>> 3420 Walnut Street
>>
>> Philadelphia, PA 19104-6206
>>
>> T. 215-746-6397
>>
>> F. 215-573-9610
>>
>> jshino at upenn.edu
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Heb-naco mailing list
>> Heb-naco at lists.osu.edu
>> https://lists.osu.edu/mailman/listinfo/heb-naco
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> *Neil M. Frau-Cortes, Ph.D.*
>>
>> Judaica, Hebraica and Metadata Cataloger
>>
>> McKeldin Library
>>
>> University of Maryland
>> College Park, MD 20742
>> Phone (301) 405-9337
>>
>> nfrau at umd.edu
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Heb-naco mailing list
>> Heb-naco at lists.osu.edu
>> https://lists.osu.edu/mailman/listinfo/heb-naco
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Heb-naco mailing list
>> Heb-naco at lists.osu.edu
>> https://lists.osu.edu/mailman/listinfo/heb-naco
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Heb-naco mailing list
> Heb-naco at lists.osu.edu
> https://lists.osu.edu/mailman/listinfo/heb-naco
>
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.osu.edu/pipermail/heb-naco/attachments/20160502/f61e7e73/attachment-0001.html>