[Heb-NACO] words starting with דרמ-

Mon May 2 12:25:44 EDT 2016

Although I supported keeping the status quo on Pesefas/Psefas - I agree now
that we need to change our policy and remove the Alcalay rule for those
words that are Greek/Latin in origin.
The reason I voted to keep the status quo for Pesefas/Psefas was the much
work it would bring on us in cleaning up the database. But it looks that we
are coming back to the same question again and again and it's time to solve
it.
Let's change all Dermah to Dramah and Pesikhologyah to Psikhologyah -
ve-yavo al Tsiyon go'el.

Yossi

Joseph (Yossi) Galron-Goldschläger
E-Mail: galron.1 at osu.edu  or jgalron at gmail.com
Tel.: (614) 292-3362,  Fax: (614)292-1918
Lexicon of Modern Hebrew Literature: http://go.osu.edu/hebrewlit

On Mon, May 2, 2016 at 11:54 AM, Shinohara, Jasmin <jshino at pobox.upenn.edu>
wrote:

> Yes, the Cataloging Committee did recently review psefas/pesefas, but IIRC
> the decision was to maintain the status quo.  I don’t recall what factors
> went into making that decision.
>
>
>
> As for following Alcalay’s vocalization, I’m not sure how that’s helpful
> since he can be so inconsistent.  Take the example of [psych], for which he
> has the following entries:
>
>
>
> Psikhah (for Psyche, myth.)
>
> Psikhoanaliṭi
>
> Psikhoanaliṭiḳai
>
> Psikho’analisah (-zah)
>
> Psikhogeni
>
> Psikhozah
>
> Psikhografah
>
> Psikhografyah
>
> Psikhoṭekhni
>
> Psikhonṭekhniḳah
>
> Psikholog
>
> Psikhologi
>
>
>
> BUT, the first exception with a sheva
>
>
>
> Pesikhologyah, followed by a bunch of different types of psychology, NONE
> of one which have a sheva under the peh:
>
> Psikhologyah geneṭit/hevdelit/ḥinukhit/le-ta’aśiyah/mashṿah/ and on,
> and on.
>
>
>
> THEN, another exception with a sheva
>
>
>
> Pesikhologizatsyah, followed by more entries with NO sheva:
>
> Psikhologism
>
> Psikhosomaṭi
>
> Psikhofisi
>
> Psikhofisikah
>
> Psikhopat
>
> Psikhopatologi
>
> Psikhopatologyah
>
>
>
> THEN, a final exception with a sheva
>
>
>
> Pesikhopati, followed by more entries with NO sheva:
>
> Psikhopatyah
>
> Psikhi
>
> Psikhi’aṭor
>
> Psikhi’aṭri, and the last,
>
> Psikhi’aṭriyah
>
>
>
> I cannot find any logic behind which words are vocalized and which are
> not, but it contradicts Heidi’s principle below that words based on a word
> with a sheva would also have a sheva.
>
>
>
> Nevertheless, Alcalay is consistent with his entries for [dram], which
> makes my question moot, if not food for thought…
>
> Deramah
>
> Deramaṭurg
>
> Dermaṭurgiyah
>
> Deramaṭizatsyah
>
> Deramati
>
> Deramatiyut
>
>
>
> (I didn’t see them till now, which is what prompted the original email.
> Apologies, Jasmin)
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Heb-naco [mailto:heb-naco-bounces+jshino=
> pobox.upenn.edu at lists.osu.edu] *On Behalf Of *Joan Biella
> *Sent:* Friday, April 29, 2016 7:11 PM
> *To:* Hebrew Name Authority Funnel
> *Subject:* Re: [Heb-NACO] words starting with דרמ-
>
>
>
> The rule being followed here is the one that says Alcalay's vocalization
> determines the romanization of words with ambiguous initial shevas.  If his
> dictionary prints the sheva, we romanize it as "e."  This rule was laid
> down for the benefit of catalogers who don't have access to spoken Hebrew
> sources, and ensures a standard romanization for everyone.
>
> Perhaps it is time to reconsider this rule, as some catalogers in some
> circumstances certainly find it annoying.  The recent exchange about
> psefas/pesefas dealt with the same issue.  Should this be discussed
> seriously by the cataloging committee?
>
> Joan
>
>
>
> On Fri, Apr 29, 2016 at 6:34 AM, Neil Manel Frau-Cortes <nfrau at umd.edu>
> wrote:
>
> No offense, but have you ever tried to explain the crazy "deramah"
> exception to somebody who is not a Hebrew cataloger?
>
>
>
> Whoever has the power could just have eliminated the exception instead of
> adding to it.
>
>
>
> All linguistic systems tend to regularization
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regularization_(linguistics)>. In any
> codification system, the more exceptions you add to rules, the less
> effective the code is.
>
>
>
> שבת שלום ומעדים לשמחה
>
>
>
> Neil
>
>
>
> On Thu, Apr 28, 2016 at 5:44 PM, Heidi G Lerner <lerner at stanford.edu>
> wrote:
>
> I would certainly think so. I can't think why not.
>
>
>
> The wod, while not of themselves completely foreign words: they are based
> on one.
>
>
>
> Just my thoughts.
>
>
>
> Best, Heidi
>
>
>
> Heidi G. Lerner
>
> Metadata Librarian for Hebraica and Judaica
>
> Metadata Dept.
>
> Stanford University Libraries
>
> Stanford, CA 94305-6004
>
> ph: 650-725-9953
>
> fax: 650-725-1120
>
> e-mail: lerner at stanford.edu
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> *From:* Shinohara, Jasmin <jshino at pobox.upenn.edu>
> *Sent:* Thursday, April 28, 2016 2:13 PM
> *To:* Hebrew Name Authority Funnel
> *Cc:* Heidi G Lerner
> *Subject:* words starting with דרמ-
>
>
>
> HCM2 clearly states דרמה as exception to vocalization of foreign loan
> words (“first sheṿa in a foreign loan word with an initial consonantal
> cluster is generally treated as a sheṿa naḥ…” cf. p. 19).  Do other words
> starting with that “root” follow that same exception, e.g. דרמטורגיה,
> דרמטי, דרמטיזציה, etc.?
>
> Thank, Jasmin
>
>
>
> ---
>
> Jasmin Shinohara
>
> Hebraica Cataloging Librarian
>
> University of Pennsylvania
>
> Van Pelt-Dietrich Library Center
>
> 3420 Walnut Street
>
> Philadelphia, PA 19104-6206
>
> T. 215-746-6397
>
> F. 215-573-9610
>
> jshino at upenn.edu
>
>
>
>
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>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> *Neil M. Frau-Cortes, Ph.D.*
>
> Judaica, Hebraica and Metadata Cataloger
>
> McKeldin Library
>
> University of Maryland
> College Park, MD 20742
> Phone (301) 405-9337
>
> nfrau at umd.edu
>
>
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