[Heb-NACO] Tekafo vs. Tokpo: round 2

[Kuperman, Aaron]

And anyone who actually is fluent in Hebrew is probably disinterested in our romanizations.  Romanization only benefits those who are fluent but illiterate in Hebrew, but are literate in English, which raises the question of why we are even bothering with it. --Aaron Kuperman

Aaron Kuperman, LC Law Cataloging Section.
This is NOT an official communication from my employer


From: Heb-naco [mailto:heb-naco-bounces at lists.osu.edu] On Behalf Of Elhanan Adler
Sent: Thursday, July 28, 2016 1:32 AM
To: Hebrew Name Authority Funnel
Subject: Re: [Heb-NACO] Tekafo vs. Tokpo: round 2

Of course, if we ask any Talmudic student (the only person who would be looking for this book in the first place) he would say 'Tokfo kohen' because that is the way it is pronounced/mispronounced in yeshivot

But then, we're not doing this for the readers as much for our own uniformity…

Elhanan

Elhanan Adler
Email: elhanana at savion.huji.ac.il<mailto:elhanana at savion.huji.ac.il>
Mobile tel.: 972-54-6829657
Tel. (NLI) 972-74-7336224
Tel. (home) 972-2-6515977
Fax (home): 972-2-6517129

From: Heb-naco [mailto:heb-naco-bounces+elhanana=savion.huji.ac.il at lists.osu.edu] On Behalf Of Barry Walfish
Sent: Thursday, July 28, 2016 8:24 AM
To: Hebrew Name Authority Funnel
Subject: Re: [Heb-NACO] Tekafo vs. Tokpo: round 2

Actually, the second word is tokef, a noun, meaning force or validity. Takef is an adjective, not relevant here.

Tokpo = ha-tokef shelo, its force, etc.

The first case, is as Jasmin says, the verb takaf with the third person pronominal suffix-- tekafo = takaf oto. As Jay says, this is a term from the Talmud Bava Metsia 6b  = tekafo kohen.

Barry

Barry Dov Walfish, Ph.D.
Judaica Specialist
University of Toronto Libraries
Toronto, ON M5S 1A5
Canada
________________________________
From: Heb-naco [heb-naco-bounces at lists.osu.edu] on behalf of Shinohara, Jasmin [jshino at pobox.upenn.edu]
Sent: Wednesday, July 27, 2016 2:25 PM
To: Hebrew Name Authority Funnel; rtalbott at library.berkeley.edu<mailto:rtalbott at library.berkeley.edu>
Subject: Re: [Heb-NACO] Tekafo vs. Tokpo: round 2
There are 2 different words: the first is תָּקַף (patah under ק) and the second is תָּקֵף (tsere under ק).  The first means “to attack”; the second means “valid, or in force” (as in a passport).  The inclination of the first is tekafo (as in, “he attacked”); the second is tokpo (as in “the passport/milk/etc. has expired”).

In the context of the Gemara the term being used is the first (the Kohen took the first-born animal by force), hence the word is to be vocalized as teḳafo.  See also E-Sh. and Alkalay (examples given under the first term is “yitsro toḳfo” “teḳafah yistrah”; an example under the second term is “pag tokpo”).

From: Heb-naco [mailto:heb-naco-bounces+jshino=pobox.upenn.edu at lists.osu.edu] On Behalf Of Heidi G Lerner
Sent: Wednesday, July 27, 2016 1:19 PM
To: rtalbott at library.berkeley.edu<mailto:rtalbott at library.berkeley.edu>; Hebrew Name Authority Funnel
Subject: Re: [Heb-NACO] Tekafo vs. Tokpo: round 2


If we go with "tokfo/tokpo" vocalization rather than "tekafo" wouldn't the "פ" get a dagesh since it comes after a quiescent "שבא״



making it toḳpo



Heidi G. Lerner

Metadata Librarian for Hebraica and Judaica

Metadata Dept.

Stanford University Libraries

Stanford, CA 94305-6004

ph: 650-725-9953

fax: 650-725-1120

e-mail: lerner at stanford.edu<mailto:lerner at stanford.edu>

________________________________
From: Heidi G Lerner
Sent: Wednesday, July 27, 2016 10:15 AM
To: rtalbott at library.berkeley.edu<mailto:rtalbott at library.berkeley.edu>; Hebrew Name Authority Funnel
Subject: Re: [Heb-NACO] Tekafo vs. Tokpo: round 2


I just checked Jastrow and it has "toḳfo"



Heidi G. Lerner

Metadata Librarian for Hebraica and Judaica

Metadata Dept.

Stanford University Libraries

Stanford, CA 94305-6004

ph: 650-725-9953

fax: 650-725-1120

e-mail: lerner at stanford.edu<mailto:lerner at stanford.edu>

________________________________
From: Heb-naco <heb-naco-bounces at lists.osu.edu<mailto:heb-naco-bounces at lists.osu.edu>> on behalf of Jay Rovner <JAROVNER at JTSA.EDU<mailto:JAROVNER at JTSA.EDU>>
Sent: Wednesday, July 27, 2016 9:41 AM
To: rtalbott at library.berkeley.edu<mailto:rtalbott at library.berkeley.edu>; Hebrew Name Authority Funnel
Subject: Re: [Heb-NACO] Tekafo vs. Tokpo: round 2

Check out the phrase and its source in a Talmudic sugya in, e.g., Hebrew Wikipedia, where it is clear that the verbal construction is tekafo
JR

Jay Rovner, PhD
Manuscript Bibliographer
The Library of The Jewish Theological Seminary
3080 Broadway
New York City, New York  10027
(212) 678-8045
jarovner at JTSA.edu<mailto:jarovner at JTSA.edu>


-----Original Message-----
From: Heb-naco [mailto:heb-naco-bounces+jarovner=jtsa.edu at lists.osu.edu] On Behalf Of Robert M. TALBOTT
Sent: Wednesday, July 27, 2016 12:24 PM
To: Hebrew Name Authority Funnel
Subject: [Heb-NACO] Tekafo vs. Tokpo: round 2

Folks:

I have a book here by Shabtai ben Meir, ha-Kohen, 1621-1662 where the first word in the title is tav-kuf-peh-vav.  The last time this book came up, about ten years ago (maybe longer), the decree was that the form we were to use was "tekafo" in this particular instance.

Anyhow, I checked in the 2007 EJ, Lo and behold, they cite the book as "Tokfo kohen." Discounting the "f" (Ester 10:2 places a dagesh in the peh), it looks to me like this is an authoritative  stance that we didn't have the last time the question was asked.

So: tekafo or tokpo?

Bob




--
Bob Talbott

Principal cataloger/Hebraica cataloger

UC Berkeley

250 Moffitt

Berkeley, CA 94720

I'm just mad about Saffron
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