[Heb-NACO] Ladino romanization help

Tue Jul 5 10:24:11 EDT 2016

Thanks for weighing in, Joan.  Consult a Spanish speaker it is, then.  Thoughts about the aleph diacritic?  Theואי  in the chart and footnote?

Best wishes, Jasmin

From: Heb-naco [mailto:heb-naco-bounces at lists.osu.edu] On Behalf Of Joan Biella
Sent: Saturday, July 02, 2016 8:59 PM
To: Hebrew Name Authority Funnel
Subject: Re: [Heb-NACO] Ladino romanization help

Just one quick remark from a lurker--no, I don't think there's any way to know whether it's "segun" or "sigun" except by comparison with Spanish.  And, as a person who's never studied Ladino per se, I don't even know that "segun" is closer to real Ladino pronunciation than "sigun" is!  But since it's much easier in most places to find a Spanish speaker or information about Spanish than it is about Ladino, the instruction to imitate Spanish vowels is easier to follow than any other we might make.  An alternative might have been to instruct romanizers to omit vowels altogether (at least for unvocalized texts), as is done in the Judeo-Arabic table, but believe me that alternative, though SAFE, is quite unpopular too!
Joan

On Fri, Jul 1, 2016 at 10:46 AM, Shinohara, Jasmin <jshino at pobox.upenn.edu<mailto:jshino at pobox.upenn.edu>> wrote:
Lisa’s suggested Romanization is below.  (I decided to respond to my own email so as to keep the conversation in one thread.)

Lisa, you are right that the title page lacks diacritical marks with the exceptions of the apostrophes after the ש of קיש'וטי and ג of מאנג'ה and ג'ואן.  Do we assume that the former should be interpreted as a ̇ג (superior dot) and not a ג' in order to Romanize based on the parallel Mancha?  Also, I now see in the chart<https://www.loc.gov/catdir/cpso/romanization/ladino.pdf> that ואי* is romanized as a ‘we’; hence, “ḳompweśṭo” and “Ḳweśṭah”; but the example of אגואה in the chart is also romanized with a ‘w’ (“agwah”); shouldג'ואן  then be “Jwan”?

Other than Heidi’s use of ‘yo’ for יאו, and your use of ‘we’ for ואי and non-use of the aleph diacritic, both of you agree on the Romanization based on the Spanish.  In other words, there is NO consistency for vav’s and yod’s (this is plain from the Romanization chart, too).  Once that’s established, then, one can deduce from the English “Injeniozo”,“ prImerah”, and “Edision”; but for non-Spanish speakers (when there is no parallel Spanish provided), is there a way to know when a single vav is a ‘u’ or an ‘o’ (“ḳapitUloś” and not “ḳapitOloś”; “segUn” and not “segOn”)?  When אי is an ‘i’ or an ‘e’ (“aljamIadah” and not “aljamEadah”)? And when a single yod is an ‘e’ not an ‘i’ (“sEgun” and not “sIgun”)?  Or is my only option to consult with a Spanish speaker?

Joan (I know you’re lurking ☺), other Ladino mavens, what are your respective takes?  Is the aleph diacritic only for use in Hebrew-origin words (per the one example in the Romanization chart)?  Lisa, do you agree that יאו is ‘yo’?  Heidi, to you agree with “ḳompweśṭo” and “Ḳweśṭah”?  (And is hidalgo a proper noun to be capitalized, as in your suggested romanization, or was that a typo?)

Thank you all for bearing with me.  Best wishes for a שבת שלום and safe and happy 4th of July, Jasmin

*Joan, Heidi: Note 2, directed from ואי in the chart, directly contradicts the example given: the note says that at the beginning of a word ואי is always preceded by a ג, e.g. גואירטה, whereas the example given shows the ואי preceded by a מ, e.g. מואיס.  Am I missing something, or does the note need to be edited?

From: Lisa Rohde [mailto:lirohde at JTSA.EDU<mailto:lirohde at JTSA.EDU>]
Sent: Thursday, June 30, 2016 12:25 PM
To: Shinohara, Jasmin
Cc: Cliff Miller
Subject: FW: Ladino romanization help

Dear Jasmin,
Cliff Miller forwarded your Ladino help request to me, since I’ve been working on Ladino cataloguing lately.  I’ve been working with a table of ALA/LC Ladino romanizations (see http://www.loc.gov/catdir/cpso/romanization/ladino.pdf).  I would treat the vowels as being the same as the Spanish ones with א transliterated as a diacritic only in Hebrew-origin words.

The notes I see suggest that the answer to your question #4 (ḳompo’eśṭo or ḳompueśṭo? Or ḳompu’eśṭo?) should be ḳompweśṭo

Gimel has several transliterations, depending on context (and the orthography in the source may or may not have the diacritics indicated – per my husband, Rabbi Ira Rohde who has studied Ladino). Where you clearly have the parallel of Mancha, I’d go with that rather than Manjah as you had.

So my version would be
El injeniozo hidalgo Don Ḳishoṭe de lah Manchah : ǂb (ḳapituloś. 1-8) / ǂc ḳompweśṭo por Migel de Servanṭeś Śaaṿedrah ; ṿerśion aljamiadah por Pilar Romeu-Fere, śegun lah primerah edision de Madrid de Juan de lah Ḳweśṭah (1605).

Good luck,

Lisa Rohde
Library, Processing Unit K701
Jewish Theological Seminary of America
3080 Broadway
New York, NY 10027
(212) 678-8044<tel:%28212%29%20678-8044> (M-Th 9:30-4)

From: Cliff Miller
Sent: Wednesday, June 29, 2016 10:44 AM
To: Lisa Rohde
Subject: FW: Ladino romanization help

Thought you would especially enjoy her dilemmas this week.  Best wishes, Cliffmiller

From: Heb-naco [mailto:heb-naco-bounces at lists.osu.edu<mailto:heb-naco-bounces at lists.osu.edu>] On Behalf Of Shinohara, Jasmin
Sent: Thursday, June 30, 2016 7:16 PM
To: Hebrew Name Authority Funnel; lirohde at JTSA.EDU<mailto:lirohde at JTSA.EDU>; lerner at stanford.edu<mailto:lerner at stanford.edu>

Cc: galron1 at osu.edu<mailto:galron1 at osu.edu>
Subject: Re: [Heb-NACO] Ladino romanization help

Sorry, our email has been down at work and I’m just catching up with emails now.

So יאו is ‘yo’ (“injenYOzo”, “RomeYO”, “edisYOn”)?  Should it not then be “ṿerśYon”?  (and should this kelal be added to the chart?)

For other letters, though, how can I know just based on the Romanization table, when אי is ‘i’ (as in “Injenyozo”) and when it’s ‘e’ (as in “ḳompuʾEśṭo”)?  In the case of names, I can determine a י (yod) based on found Romanization (e.g. “ḲIshoṭe” and not “ḲEshoṭe”, “PIlar” and not “PElar”, etc.), but what about other words (e.g., “aljamIadah” and not (“aljamEadah”)?  Also, when do I add the aleph diacritic (“ḳompuʾeśṭo”, “Śaʾaṿedrah”), and when not (“aljamiadah”)? And when is a ו (vav) a ‘u’ and when an ‘o’ (“ḳOmpUʾeśṭO”, “ḳapiṭUlOs”)?

Or is my only hope to consult a Spanish speaker for the vowels? (They couldn’t advise on the diactric, though.)

Lisa Rohde (at JTS) emailed me directly; I will forward her response and my follow-up questions separately so as to avoid an overly lengthy email…

From: Heb-naco [mailto:heb-naco-bounces+jshino=pobox.upenn.edu at lists.osu.edu] On Behalf Of Heidi G Lerner
Sent: Thursday, June 30, 2016 11:58 AM
To: Hebrew Name Authority Funnel
Cc: galron1 at osu.edu<mailto:galron1 at osu.edu>
Subject: Re: [Heb-NACO] Ladino romanization help

Dear Jasmin,

Here is the romanization that I come up with based on the ALA/LC Romanization table:

El injenyozo Hidalgo Don Ḳishoṭe de lah Manjah :ǂbḳapiṭulos 1-8 /ǂcḳompuʾeśṭo por Migel de Servanṭes Śaʾaṿedrah : ṿerśion aljamiadah por Pilar Romeyo-Fero  śegun lah primerah edisyon de Madrid de Juan deh lah Ḳuesṭah (1605).

.Best, Heidi

Heidi G. Lerner

Metadata Librarian for Hebraica and Judaica

Metadata Dept.

Stanford University Libraries

Stanford, CA 94305-6004

ph: 650-725-9953<tel:650-725-9953>

fax: 650-725-1120<tel:650-725-1120>

e-mail: lerner at stanford.edu<mailto:lerner at stanford.edu>

________________________________
From: Heb-naco <heb-naco-bounces+lerner=stanford.edu at lists.osu.edu<mailto:heb-naco-bounces+lerner=stanford.edu at lists.osu.edu>> on behalf of Shinohara, Jasmin <jshino at pobox.upenn.edu<mailto:jshino at pobox.upenn.edu>>
Sent: Tuesday, June 28, 2016 8:26 AM
To: Hebrew Name Authority Funnel
Cc: galron1 at osu.edu<mailto:galron1 at osu.edu>
Subject: [Heb-NACO] Ladino romanization help

Hi, I’m struggling to understand the vowel Romanization for Ladino:  when does an א simply get transcribed as an ‘a’ and when with a diacritical aleph; when there’s no vocalization, how does one know when the ו (vav) is an ‘o’ or a ‘u’?  Is an אי always ‘e’, or sometimes ‘i’, depending on the context?  The same for a י (yod) -- when there’s no vocalization, how does one know when it’s an ‘e’ and when it’s an ‘i’?  For those of us who don’t know Spanish, it’s rather a toss-up.

The case I have in hand is

איל אינג'יניאוזו הידלגו דון קיש'וטי די לה מאנג'ה : ǂb

(קאפיטולוש. 1-8) / ǂc

קומפואישטו פור מיגיל די סירב'אנטיש שאאוידרה ; וירשיאון אלג'אמיאדה פור פילאר רומיאו-פ'ירי, שיגון לה פרימירה אידיסיאון די מאדריד די ג'ואן די לה קואישטה (1605)

Though there’s no vocalization on the ש’s, given the context I know they’re meant to be ‘sin’ (other than in קיש'וטי) ; but otherwise, do I go for consistency when Romanizing the vavs and yods, or, especially in the case of names, transcribe what makes sense?  This is my current stab at it:

El enjene’ozo hidalgo Don Ḳeshoṭe de lah Manjah : ǂb (ḳapitoloś. 1-8) / ǂc ḳompo’eśṭo por Megel de Servanṭeś Śa’aṿedrah ; ṿerśe’on aljameadah por Pelar Romeo-Fere, śegon lah premerah edeseon de Madrid de Joan de lah Ḳoeśṭah (1605).

But in this case I’ve got an added t.p. in Spanish:

El ingenioso hidalgo Don Quijote de la Mancha : ǂb (capítulos 1-8) / ǂc compuesto por Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra ; versión aljamiada por Pilar Romeu Ferré según la primera edición de Madrid de Juan de la Cuesta (1605).

Based on the Spanish I’m second-guessing some the romanized words:

1.      Should it be enjene’ozo or injeneozo? Or injene’ozo? Or injeni’ozo?

2.      Is it Ḳeshoṭe or Ḳishoṭe?

3.      ḳapitoloś. or ḳapituloś. (the full stop appears on the source)

4.      ḳompo’eśṭo or ḳompueśṭo? Or ḳompu’eśṭo?

5.      Megel or Migel?

6.      Śa’aṿedrah or Śaaṿedrah?

7.      ṿerśe'on or ṿerśion? Or ṿerśi’on?

8.      aljameadah or aljamiadah? Or aljami’adah?

9.      Pelar or Pilar?

10.   Romeo or Romeu? Or Rome’u?

11.   śegon or śegun?

12.   premerah or primerah?

13.   edeseon or edision? Or edisi’on?

14.   Jo’an or Juan? Or Ju’an?

15.   Ḳo’eśṭah or Ḳueśṭah? Or Ḳu’eśṭah?

Please advise.  Thanks!!  Jasmin

---

Jasmin Shinohara

Hebraica Cataloging Librarian

University of Pennsylvania

Van Pelt-Dietrich Library Center

3420 Walnut Street

Philadelphia, PA 19104-6206

T. 215-746-6397<tel:215-746-6397>

F. 215-573-9610<tel:215-573-9610>

jshino at upenn.edu<mailto:jshino at upenn.edu>

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