[Heb-NACO] Romanization of non-Hebrew proper nouns

Mon Nov 28 12:38:56 EST 2011

Please consider a “second thought” that occurred to me. Using guidance from information on vernacular pronunciation might allow one to consider the yod as simply an indicator of vocalic value, and Romanize מ(א)ריו as Mario.
JR

Jay Rovner, PhD
Manuscript Bibliographer
Library of The Jewish Theological Seminary
5501 Library
3080 Broadway
New York City, New York  10027
(212) 678-8045

From: heb-naco-bounces+jarovner=jtsa.edu at lists.service.ohio-state.edu [mailto:heb-naco-bounces+jarovner=jtsa.edu at lists.service.ohio-state.edu] On Behalf Of Jay Rovner
Sent: Monday, November 28, 2011 12:09 PM
To: Hebrew Name Authority Funnel
Subject: Re: [Heb-NACO] Romanization of non-Hebrew proper nouns

>From the following Maher's Hebrew cataloging, p. 13), and from a more detailed source that I cannot locate, the vocalization should follow the vernacular pronunciation.

Non-Hebrew names

Supplying the vowels for non-Hebrew proper names appearing in Hebrew works can be quite problematic. Frequently there is some indication from either the author’s or the publisher’s romanization appearing in the item being cataloged. Occasionally however, there is no clue whatsoever. In those cases, an attempt is made to find the name or surname in English telephone books published in Israel or in other reference sources. Even though a "pure" AACR2 heading cannot be taken from the form found in a telephone book, the latter can be a useful aid in attempting to determine the correct vocalization. References may be made from the variants found. When it is impossible to determine the exact vocalization, it is up to the cataloger to make a judgment as to the likely vocalization and to refer from other reasonable possibilities. As above, if evidence is inconclusive, then such a heading is coded as provisional.

This would help with regard to names where a yod representing a romance language “e” would be Romanize as “e” instead of “i,”  as opposed to a straight romanization of hirik=“i.” However, the yod of מאריו  would need to be represented in the Romanization. Nonetheless, I think that the implied hirik with the resh would dictate a Romanization of that element as “ri” according to the above paragraph, i.e., a simple Romanization of “Maryo” would not be correct).

JR

Jay Rovner, PhD

Manuscript Bibliographer

Library of The Jewish Theological Seminary

5501 Library

3080 Broadway

New York City, New York  10027

(212) 678-8045

-----Original Message-----
From: heb-naco-bounces at lists.service.ohio-state.edu [mailto:heb-naco-bounces at lists.service.ohio-state.edu] On Behalf Of Aaron Kuperman
Sent: Monday, November 28, 2011 11:30 AM
To: Hebrew Name Authority Funnel
Subject: Re: [Heb-NACO] Romanization of non-Hebrew proper nouns

Perhaps there is since the Hebraicized Yiddish name is a

"naturalized" Hebrew word, but the Hebraicized Italian name isn't. One

should ask how Israelis pronounce the name. There is some evidence that

Hebrew speakers with the name "Mario" pronounce it the way it is

pronounced in Italian and English

Which gets to historical question, should the purpose of romanization be

to facilitate access to the catalog by users, even if this requires

catalogers to do more research to find a form that users prefer. Our

competition (the "google" approach, which some argue should replace

our's) aims to enter authors under the names that the authors and users

prefer rather than an artificial construct devised by catalogers and

linguists.

Aaron

On Mon, 28 Nov 2011, Biella, Joan wrote:

> Is there a difference between saying that the Italian name "Mario" should be "romanized" as "Mario" rather than "Mariyo" and saying that the German name "Goldstein" should be "romanized" as "Goldstein" rather than "Goldshtain"?

>

> Joan

>

>

> -----Original Message-----

> From: heb-naco-bounces+jbie=loc.gov at lists.service.ohio-state.edu [mailto:heb-naco-bounces+jbie=loc.gov at lists.service.ohio-state.edu] On Behalf Of Aaron Kuperman

> Sent: Sunday, November 27, 2011 7:31 PM

> To: Heb-naco at lists.service.ohio-state.edu

> Subject: [Heb-NACO] Romanization of non-Hebrew proper nouns

>

> A similar question to the issue for Breslev/Braslav is raised whenever we encounter a proper noun that is written in Hebrew without nekudot. I recall a recent argument over the Italian/English forename "Mario" which based on the internet is uniformly romanized, and I believe pronounced, by users of that forename the same way it is written in Italian and English

> -- yet according to current policy is romanized in catalog records as if it was a Hebrew word, leading to a romanization that it unrecognizable.

>

>

> Perhaps there should be a rule that non-Hebrew proper nouns should be romanized based on how users routinely romanize them, rather than trying to base a rule that applies Hebrew grammatical principles to non-Hebrew words.

>

> And yes, I am primarily a subject cataloger who believes access points should reflect user needs rather than cataloger convenience (though in some ways RDA is moving more in that direction, at least in theory, at least according to Barbara Tillet).

>

> Aaron Wolfe Kuperman

> Library of Congress, ABA USPL, Law Cataloging Section

>

>

>

> This is DEFINITELY NOT an official communication from the Library of Congress.

>

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Aaron Wolfe Kuperman

Library of Congress, ABA USPL, Law Cataloging Section

This is NOT an official communication from the Library of Congress.

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