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<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'>Please consider a “second
thought” that occurred to me. Using guidance from information on vernacular
pronunciation might allow one to consider the <i>yod</i> as simply an indicator
of vocalic value, and Romanize </span><span lang=HE dir=RTL style='font-family:
"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>î(à)øéå</span><span dir=LTR></span><span
lang=HE style='color:#1F497D'><span dir=LTR></span> </span><span
style='color:#1F497D'>as Mario.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'>JR<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";
color:#1F497D'>Jay Rovner, PhD<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";
color:#1F497D'>Manuscript Bibliographer<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";
color:#1F497D'>Library of The Jewish Theological Seminary<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";
color:#1F497D'>5501 Library<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";
color:#1F497D'>3080 Broadway<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";
color:#1F497D'>New York City, New York 10027<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";
color:#1F497D'>(212) 678-8045<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>
heb-naco-bounces+jarovner=jtsa.edu@lists.service.ohio-state.edu
[mailto:heb-naco-bounces+jarovner=jtsa.edu@lists.service.ohio-state.edu] <b>On
Behalf Of </b>Jay Rovner<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, November 28, 2011 12:09 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Hebrew Name Authority Funnel<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Heb-NACO] Romanization of non-Hebrew proper nouns<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>From the following Maher's Hebrew cataloging, p. 13), and
from a more detailed source that I cannot locate, the vocalization should
follow the vernacular pronunciation.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText style='margin-left:.5in'><b>Non-Hebrew names<o:p></o:p></b></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText style='margin-left:.5in'>Supplying the vowels for
non-Hebrew proper names appearing in Hebrew works can be quite problematic.
Frequently there is some indication from either the author’s or the publisher’s
romanization appearing in the item being cataloged. Occasionally however, there
is no clue whatsoever. In those cases, an attempt is made to find the name or
surname in English telephone books published in Israel or in other reference
sources. Even though a "pure" AACR2 heading cannot be taken from the
form found in a telephone book, the latter can be a useful aid in attempting to
determine the correct vocalization. References may be made from the variants
found. When it is impossible to determine the exact vocalization, it is up to
the cataloger to make a judgment as to the likely vocalization and to refer
from other reasonable possibilities. As above, if evidence is inconclusive,
then such a heading is coded as provisional.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>This would help with regard to names where a <i>yod</i>
representing a romance language “e” would be Romanize as “e” instead of “i,”
as opposed to a straight romanization of <i>hirik=</i>“i.” However, the <i>yod</i>
of <span lang=HE dir=RTL style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>îàøéå</span><span
lang=HE dir=RTL style='font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'> </span><span
dir=LTR></span><span style='color:#1F497D'><span dir=LTR></span> w</span>ould
need to be represented in the Romanization. Nonetheless, I think that the
implied <i>hirik </i>with the <i>resh </i>would dictate a Romanization of that
element as “ri” according to the above paragraph, i.e., a simple Romanization
of “Maryo” would not be correct).<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>JR<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>Jay Rovner, PhD<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>Manuscript Bibliographer<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>Library of The Jewish Theological Seminary<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>5501 Library<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>3080 Broadway<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>New York City, New York 10027<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>(212) 678-8045<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>-----Original Message-----<br>
From: heb-naco-bounces@lists.service.ohio-state.edu
[mailto:heb-naco-bounces@lists.service.ohio-state.edu] On Behalf Of Aaron
Kuperman<br>
Sent: Monday, November 28, 2011 11:30 AM<br>
To: Hebrew Name Authority Funnel<br>
Subject: Re: [Heb-NACO] Romanization of non-Hebrew proper nouns<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>Perhaps there is since the Hebraicized Yiddish name is a<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>"naturalized" Hebrew word, but the Hebraicized
Italian name isn't. One<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>should ask how Israelis pronounce the name. There is some
evidence that<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>Hebrew speakers with the name "Mario" pronounce
it the way it is<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>pronounced in Italian and English<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>Which gets to historical question, should the purpose of
romanization be<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>to facilitate access to the catalog by users, even if
this requires<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>catalogers to do more research to find a form that users
prefer. Our<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>competition (the "google" approach, which some
argue should replace<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>our's) aims to enter authors under the names that the
authors and users<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>prefer rather than an artificial construct devised by
catalogers and<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>linguists.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>Aaron<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>On Mon, 28 Nov 2011, Biella, Joan wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>> Is there a difference between saying that the
Italian name "Mario" should be "romanized" as
"Mario" rather than "Mariyo" and saying that the German
name "Goldstein" should be "romanized" as
"Goldstein" rather than "Goldshtain"?<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>> Joan<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>> -----Original Message-----<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>> From: heb-naco-bounces+jbie=loc.gov@lists.service.ohio-state.edu
[mailto:heb-naco-bounces+jbie=loc.gov@lists.service.ohio-state.edu] On Behalf
Of Aaron Kuperman<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>> Sent: Sunday, November 27, 2011 7:31 PM<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>> To: Heb-naco@lists.service.ohio-state.edu<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>> Subject: [Heb-NACO] Romanization of non-Hebrew
proper nouns<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>> A similar question to the issue for Breslev/Braslav
is raised whenever we encounter a proper noun that is written in Hebrew without
nekudot. I recall a recent argument over the Italian/English forename
"Mario" which based on the internet is uniformly romanized, and I
believe pronounced, by users of that forename the same way it is written in
Italian and English<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>> -- yet according to current policy is romanized in
catalog records as if it was a Hebrew word, leading to a romanization that it
unrecognizable.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>> Perhaps there should be a rule that non-Hebrew
proper nouns should be romanized based on how users routinely romanize them,
rather than trying to base a rule that applies Hebrew grammatical principles to
non-Hebrew words.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>> And yes, I am primarily a subject cataloger who
believes access points should reflect user needs rather than cataloger
convenience (though in some ways RDA is moving more in that direction, at least
in theory, at least according to Barbara Tillet).<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>> Aaron Wolfe Kuperman<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>> Library of Congress, ABA USPL, Law Cataloging
Section<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>> This is DEFINITELY NOT an official communication
from the Library of Congress.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>> _______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>> Heb-naco mailing list<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>> Heb-naco@lists.service.ohio-state.edu<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>>
https://lists.service.ohio-state.edu/mailman/listinfo/heb-naco<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>> _______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>> Heb-naco mailing list<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>> Heb-naco@lists.service.ohio-state.edu<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>> https://lists.service.ohio-state.edu/mailman/listinfo/heb-naco<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>Aaron Wolfe Kuperman<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>Library of Congress, ABA USPL, Law Cataloging Section<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>This is NOT an official communication from the Library of
Congress.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>Heb-naco mailing list<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>Heb-naco@lists.service.ohio-state.edu<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoPlainText>https://lists.service.ohio-state.edu/mailman/listinfo/heb-naco<o:p></o:p></p>
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