[Vwoolf] Vwoolf Digest, Vol 119, Issue 31 Ignorance of privilege Jeremmy Hawthorn
Palvasha von Hassell
p_v_hassell at t-online.de
Mon Apr 18 05:14:24 EDT 2022
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"patriarchy and the subjugation of women . . .".
Let me clarify, as you seem to have made the wrong assumption about my use of above words: I would be the last person to suggest Woolf ever seriously meant women of all classes when she wrote or talked about women; I used the words above in the sense she would have used them: for women who somehow already had the wherewithal to struggle for a meaningful place in society. She was never one to engage in the general struggle for womens’ emancipation as this included the "lower" classes, to which she emphatically did not belong.
Palvasha von Hassell
M.Phil. IR (Selwyn 1985)
Cambridge University
Am Mühlenteich 35
25436 Uetersen
Germany
++49 15161626162
> On 18. Apr 2022, at 10:56, vwoolf-request at lists.osu.edu wrote:
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> 1. Re: Ignorance of privilege, Diana Swanson (Palvasha von Hassell)
> 2. Re: Ignorance of privilege, Diana Swanson (Jeremy Hawthorn)
>
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>
> Message: 1
> Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2022 08:28:15 +0000
> From: Palvasha von Hassell <p_v_hassell at t-online.de>
> To: "vwoolf at lists.osu.edu" <vwoolf at lists.osu.edu>
> Subject: Re: [Vwoolf] Ignorance of privilege, Diana Swanson
> Message-ID: <4C687187-A817-4A3F-B312-003A16C3573F at t-online.de>
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> Very interesting point; I think there are (at least) two kinds of ignorance, unconscious and conscious or wilful. The former relates to comfortably situated members of an affluent society who are simply oblivious to the grinding poverty and lack of opportunity of others anywhere in the world. An example of the latter (conscious or wilful ignorance) would be patriarchy and the subjugation of women with their corresponding disqualification from being influential members of society as women, the subject matter of Three Guineas. So in this sense, certainly.
>
> Palvasha von Hassell
> M.Phil. IR (Selwyn 1985)
> Cambridge University
>
> Am M?hlenteich 35
> 25436 Uetersen
> Germany
>
> ++49 15161626162
>
>> On 17. Apr 2022, at 23:16, vwoolf-request at lists.osu.edu wrote:
>>
>> ?Send Vwoolf mailing list submissions to
>> vwoolf at lists.osu.edu
>>
>> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>> https://lists.osu.edu/mailman/listinfo/vwoolf
>> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>> vwoolf-request at lists.osu.edu
>>
>> You can reach the person managing the list at
>> vwoolf-owner at lists.osu.edu
>>
>> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
>> than "Re: Contents of Vwoolf digest..."
>>
>>
>> Today's Topics:
>>
>> 1. Re: "the 'ignorance' of privilege" (DIANA SWANSON)
>> 2. Re: "the 'ignorance' of privilege" (George Entenman)
>>
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 1
>> Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2022 15:45:21 -0500 (CDT)
>> From: DIANA SWANSON <diana_swanson at comcast.net>
>> To: "vwoolf at lists.osu.edu" <vwoolf at lists.osu.edu>
>> Subject: Re: [Vwoolf] "the 'ignorance' of privilege"
>> Message-ID: <1512951983.2302617.1650228322045 at connect.xfinity.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>>
>> I'd like to get back to Stuart's original point (at least as I saw it): the privilege of not knowing--not needing to know, not being forced to know, and getting away without knowing--about oppression and privilege. To quote the beginning of the article that Stuart linked, "Sienna Miller says her new Netflix drama highlights the 'ignorance' of people who don't realise they have a head start in life and 'don't think' about the struggles of those without the same privileges." This kind of privileged ignorance is often about class or race or sex/gender or various permutations/combinations thereof. Isn't that in part what Three Guineas is about?
>>
>> Diana
>>
>>>> On 04/17/2022 3:27 PM Mark Scott via Vwoolf <vwoolf at lists.osu.edu> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> I took a typing class in high school. I think it was an elective course. There were a few of those in my high school back in the early 1970s. As it turns out, it proved to be the most valuable, or at least, practical skill I learned during ZjQcmQRYFpfptBannerStart
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> This Message Is From an External Sender
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>>> I took a typing class in high school. I think it was an elective course. There were a few of those in my high school back in the early 1970s. As it turns out, it proved to be the most valuable, or at least, practical skill I learned during my young life in terms of making a living.
>>>
>>> Mark Scott
>>> Common Reader
>>>
>>> From: Jeremy Hawthorn via Vwoolf
>>> Sent: Sunday, April 17, 2022 1:12 AM
>>> To: vwoolf at lists.osu.edu
>>> Subject: Re: [Vwoolf] "the 'ignorance' of privilege"
>>>
>>> The supreme irony in all this is that we would all have benefitted from a basic course in typing at school. With work on PCs well-nigh universal, the skill of typing is accordingly almost universally useful. As a boy in England I was forced ZjQcmQRYFpfptBannerStart
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>>>
>>> The supreme irony in all this is that we would all have benefitted from a basic course in typing at school. With work on PCs well-nigh universal, the skill of typing is accordingly almost universally useful. As a boy in England I was forced to study woodwork and metalwork, at both of which I was so incompetent that one teacher hit me hard across the head with a length of wood. Ah, the good old days. Had I learned to type properly, I might this very moment be using more that two fingers to type. Mind you, that is double the number used by an old friend who worked as a lawyer all his life. So women in the professions who were forced to take courses in typing have the last laugh on us men here I think
>>>
>>>
>>> Jeremy H
>>>
>>>
>>> Fra: Vwoolf <vwoolf-bounces at lists.osu.edu> P? vegne av Danell Jones via Vwoolf
>>> Sendt: l?rdag 16. april 2022 22:32
>>> Til: Mary Ellen Foley <mefoleyuk at gmail.com>; Stuart N. Clarke <stuart.n.clarke at btinternet.com>
>>> Kopi: vwoolf at lists.osu.edu
>>> Emne: Re: [Vwoolf] "the 'ignorance' of privilege"
>>>
>>>
>>> My mother also told me that I had to take a typing class in high school because then I would always have something to ?fall back on.? As I remember it, secretarial work was considered not just safe but respectable and even a little upwardly ZjQcmQRYFpfptBannerStart
>>>
>>> This Message Is From an External Sender
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>>> This message came from outside your organization.
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>>>
>>> ZjQcmQRYFpfptBannerEnd
>>>
>>> My mother also told me that I had to take a typing class in high school because then I would always have something to ?fall back on.?
>>>
>>>
>>> As I remember it, secretarial work was considered not just safe but respectable and even a little upwardly mobile. (Neither of my grandmothers could type.) There was a sense that being a secretary in an office was a safe, professional job that meant you didn?t have to do manual labor.
>>>
>>>
>>> I don?t know if this is an American thing, but even though I had a typical middle-class upbringing, a fear of losing everything was threaded through it. Poverty and failure lurked in the shadows. My dad was an Okie, so that probably explains a lot.
>>>
>>>
>>> Danell
>>>
>>>
>>> Sent from Mail https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986__;!!KGKeukY!jqrSQRZMBTz2bdCXMuPWJXIGhp6tJVxJoyR_JIhgjNVCyRSwhKWDxCxfySg_mTEAEYA$ for Windows
>>>
>>>
>>> From: Mary Ellen Foley via Vwoolf
>>> Sent: Saturday, April 16, 2022 12:41 PM
>>> To: Stuart N. Clarke
>>> Cc: vwoolf at lists.osu.edu
>>> Subject: Re: [Vwoolf] "the 'ignorance' of privilege"
>>>
>>>
>>> Ah, yes. Something to fall back on. I was majoring in chemistry, with a place at Stanford for graduate school, and my mother, who was paying for books and living expenses (tuition was via scholarship), insisted that I take some classes in the ZjQcmQRYFpfptBannerStart
>>>
>>> This Message Is From an External Sender
>>>
>>> This message came from outside your organization.
>>>
>>> Report Suspicious https://us-phishalarm-ewt.proofpoint.com/EWT/v1/KGKeukY!vYQd06kp6AmuxBn9X8RunQqHUEbl-RkoKf3FxDVFYeZwgRPTZlOjalu9o4aP8FTew3GHAG1gmcdHkoHQVrrcD1UQS6kcrPt0ADuFmZUJ_9D8njT07IiuK-vYzDeO9dg$ ?
>>>
>>> ZjQcmQRYFpfptBannerEnd
>>>
>>> Ah, yes. Something to fall back on. I was majoring in chemistry, with a place at Stanford for graduate school, and my mother, who was paying for books and living expenses (tuition was via scholarship), insisted that I take some classes in the education department because, and I do quote exactly here, "If a woman can't do anything else, she can always teach or be a secretary."
>>>
>>> Bless her heart. What a lovely vote of confidence! At least that's how I took it at the time, though she might have meant "If a woman isn't permitted to do anything else..." And the education classes were utter DRECK -- I despair for Kentucky schools, I really do --
>>>
>>> Then again, she might have had a point. I have an unfashionable regional accent, and a friend of mine who also moved to the Bay Area ended up working on a loading dock, because companies wouldn't hire her as a front-desk receptionist because of her accent. I am sure that, when I did go to get a job, I probably had a harder time of it than those who sounded like the announcers on TV.
>>>
>>>
>>> That was -*cough*- decades ago. I do hope things have changed...
>>>
>>>
>>> Mary Ellen
>>>
>>>
>>>> On Sat, Apr 16, 2022 at 11:04 AM Stuart N. Clarke via Vwoolf <vwoolf at lists.osu.edu> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>> I know this isn?t really relevant to the listserv, but it will resonate with those of you who (like me) come from working-class backgrounds: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-61107909__;!!KGKeukY!jX4HTzVYPjFIcQXcq-4fUNETBAn0YpXcg4eHBrxdK4JsiC3_35jNOfW66az4W62HJ9c$ https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-61107909__;!!KGKeukY!gH-UkaXScOEYmSgt3p90A7JoQTQcJ4dN6O9jRlCDe2ycgM-BLLdgP2srmOn2E73fqRA$ I saw a black woman on the TV the other day, ZjQcmQRYFpfptBannerStart
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> This Message Is From an External Sender
>>>>
>>>> This message came from outside your organization.
>>>>
>>>> Report Suspicious https://us-phishalarm-ewt.proofpoint.com/EWT/v1/KGKeukY!sGQdnYZBTacuxBeRP86E9ytrKK29SD1lBfSnj2jVIEkfe1VTgCvMGf8ELi80f2URD_mFqdu97wP3C-5Eqg9XCC1_uP24eg$
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ZjQcmQRYFpfptBannerEnd
>>>>
>>>> I know this isn?t really relevant to the listserv, but it will resonate with those of you who (like me) come from working-class backgrounds:
>>>>
>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-61107909__;!!KGKeukY!jX4HTzVYPjFIcQXcq-4fUNETBAn0YpXcg4eHBrxdK4JsiC3_35jNOfW66az4W62HJ9c$ https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-61107909__;!!KGKeukY!jqPe0meTvr01hNVZznnvkz6Z06TNnQ2kd0H0ZG40o5HZ1vHKY6J7qH1mDiJtWqW9MV4$
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I saw a black woman on the TV the other day, who went to the careers? advisor at school and said she wanted to go to university. ?What about secretarial college??
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Which reminds me of Sylvia Plath and her mother: go to secretarial college and you?ll have something to fall back on. From memory, in ?The Bell Jar? she didn?t want to type interesting letters for some man, but write interesting letters herself.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I remember telling a Woolfian acquaintance that I had never wanted to work, never had any idea of what to do. She was surprised/shocked: ?What about publishing??
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I then fantasised about going back in time and telling my parents that I wanted to go into publishing, and their subsequent conversation in their bedroom:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ?Where?s Lord Muck got *this* idea from??
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ?Well, he hasnae got it from me.?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Stuart
>>>>
>>>>>
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>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 2
>> Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2022 17:15:31 -0400
>> From: George Entenman <ge at entenman.net>
>> To: DIANA SWANSON <diana_swanson at comcast.net>
>> Cc: "vwoolf at lists.osu.edu" <vwoolf at lists.osu.edu>
>> Subject: Re: [Vwoolf] "the 'ignorance' of privilege"
>> Message-ID:
>> <CA+1z_8dJQPDF0+MgtuDGRWqxKTuUPnFMAP623tq7QV83BQ6n+g at mail.gmail.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>>
>> This thread reminds me of a conversation I had yesterday with a prominent
>> doctor at a local hospital.
>>
>> She caught COVID some time ago and has still not completely recovered. She
>> was on oxygen for two months because she felt as if she were suffocating.
>> (She said she would have probably died if she'd contracted COVID earlier
>> because she would have been put on a ventilator, which turned out to
>> increase mortality for still undetermined reasons.)
>>
>> This reminds me of *a different kind of ignorance of privilege: that of
>> those whose health has been good*. My doctor friend told me how
>> eye-opening it was for her to be in the hospital as a critically ill
>> patient.
>>
>> - ge, chapel hill, nc
>>
>> On Sun, Apr 17, 2022 at 4:45 PM DIANA SWANSON via Vwoolf <
>> vwoolf at lists.osu.edu> wrote:
>>
>>> I'd like to get back to Stuart's original point (at least as I saw it):
>>> the privilege of not knowing--not needing to know, not being forced to
>>> know, and getting away without knowing--about oppression and privilege. To
>>> quote the beginning of ZjQcmQRYFpfptBannerStart
>>> This Message Is From an External Sender
>>> This message came from outside your organization.
>>> Report Suspicious
>>>
>>> <https://us-phishalarm-ewt.proofpoint.com/EWT/v1/KGKeukY!s8QTnSZhQsagS5gxfE7EF1EzHEpPeqIvGyljGKJaRPHF5dL0BC7f7ovQeg2_8w6aRudsd9FPkt_IAOAJezZ0Upy7NavEXG7IzAa2yrgiYT7o$>
>>>
>>> ZjQcmQRYFpfptBannerEnd
>>> I'd like to get back to Stuart's original point (at least as I saw it):
>>> the privilege of not knowing--not needing to know, not being forced to
>>> know, and getting away without knowing--about oppression and privilege. To
>>> quote the beginning of the article that Stuart linked, "Sienna Miller says
>>> her new Netflix drama highlights the 'ignorance' of people who don't
>>> realise they have a head start in life and 'don't think' about the
>>> struggles of those without the same privileges." This kind of privileged
>>> ignorance is often about class or race or sex/gender or various
>>> permutations/combinations thereof. Isn't that in part what *Three Guineas*
>>> is about?
>>>
>>> Diana
>>>
>>>> On 04/17/2022 3:27 PM Mark Scott via Vwoolf <vwoolf at lists.osu.edu> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> I took a typing class in high school. I think it was an elective course.
>>> There were a few of those in my high school back in the early 1970s. As it
>>> turns out, it proved to be the most valuable, or at least, practical skill
>>> I learned during ZjQcmQRYFpfptBannerStart
>>> This Message Is From an External Sender
>>> This message came from outside your organization.
>>> Report Suspicious
>>>
>>> ZjQcmQRYFpfptBannerEnd
>>> I took a typing class in high school. I think it was an elective course.
>>> There were a few of those in my high school back in the early 1970s. As it
>>> turns out, it proved to be the most valuable, or at least, practical skill
>>> I learned during my young life in terms of making a living.
>>>
>>> Mark Scott
>>> Common Reader
>>>
>>> *From:* Jeremy Hawthorn via Vwoolf
>>> *Sent:* Sunday, April 17, 2022 1:12 AM
>>> *To:* vwoolf at lists.osu.edu
>>> *Subject:* Re: [Vwoolf] "the 'ignorance' of privilege"
>>>
>>> The supreme irony in all this is that we would all have benefitted from a
>>> basic course in typing at school. With work on PCs well-nigh universal, the
>>> skill of typing is accordingly almost universally useful. As a boy in
>>> England I was forced ZjQcmQRYFpfptBannerStart
>>> This Message Is From an External Sender
>>> This message came from outside your organization.
>>> * Report Suspicious *
>>> <https://us-phishalarm-ewt.proofpoint.com/EWT/v1/KGKeukY!vOQf0UZNA6bhRRdxHw6kd97wkc7MCpwKUTGVsKuKAZk5KdHnYEAgyYOmU389u45j9YVf2yS4KQbCOZca0pazDp2sWHNsB40AJnGuPxlsqmX8bIJz4w56JnmBiwVU1-8ZzK5L1jkRpdcXkQ$>
>>> ?
>>> ZjQcmQRYFpfptBannerEnd
>>>
>>> The supreme irony in all this is that we would *all* have benefitted from
>>> a basic course in typing at school. With work on PCs well-nigh universal,
>>> the skill of typing is accordingly almost universally useful. As a boy in
>>> England I was forced to study woodwork and metalwork, at both of which I
>>> was so incompetent that one teacher hit me hard across the head with a
>>> length of wood. Ah, the good old days. Had I learned to type properly, I
>>> might this very moment be using more that two fingers to type. Mind you,
>>> that is double the number used by an old friend who worked as a lawyer all
>>> his life. So women in the professions who were forced to take courses in
>>> typing have the last laugh on us men here I think
>>>
>>>
>>> Jeremy H
>>>
>>>
>>> *Fra:* Vwoolf <vwoolf-bounces at lists.osu.edu> *P? vegne av *Danell Jones
>>> via Vwoolf
>>> *Sendt:* l?rdag 16. april 2022 22:32
>>> *Til:* Mary Ellen Foley <mefoleyuk at gmail.com>; Stuart N. Clarke <
>>> stuart.n.clarke at btinternet.com>
>>> *Kopi:* vwoolf at lists.osu.edu
>>> *Emne:* Re: [Vwoolf] "the 'ignorance' of privilege"
>>>
>>>
>>> My mother also told me that I had to take a typing class in high school
>>> because then I would always have something to ?fall back on.? As I remember
>>> it, secretarial work was considered not just safe but respectable and even
>>> a little upwardly ZjQcmQRYFpfptBannerStart
>>>
>>> This Message Is From an External Sender
>>>
>>> This message came from outside your organization.
>>>
>>> * Report Suspicious *
>>> <https://us-phishalarm-ewt.proofpoint.com/EWT/v1/KGKeukY!sSQT10yJiY0IqrMRvC6qfG79i0EVOqvSFxlW4bnp_TG5x7G7B1cxg2mhNkUI0KzdAfuU_nAfriiN4b80$>
>>> ?
>>>
>>> ZjQcmQRYFpfptBannerEnd
>>>
>>> My mother also told me that I had to take a typing class in high school
>>> because then I would always have something to ?fall back on.?
>>>
>>>
>>> As I remember it, secretarial work was considered not just safe but
>>> respectable and even a little upwardly mobile. (Neither of my grandmothers
>>> could type.) There was a sense that being a secretary in an office was a
>>> safe, professional job that meant you didn?t have to do manual labor.
>>>
>>>
>>> I don?t know if this is an American thing, but even though I had a typical
>>> middle-class upbringing, a fear of losing everything was threaded through
>>> it. Poverty and failure lurked in the shadows. My dad was an Okie, so that
>>> probably explains a lot.
>>>
>>>
>>> Danell
>>>
>>>
>>> Sent from Mail
>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986__;!!KGKeukY!jqrSQRZMBTz2bdCXMuPWJXIGhp6tJVxJoyR_JIhgjNVCyRSwhKWDxCxfySg_mTEAEYA$>
>>> for Windows
>>>
>>>
>>> *From: *Mary Ellen Foley via Vwoolf
>>> *Sent: *Saturday, April 16, 2022 12:41 PM
>>> *To: *Stuart N. Clarke
>>> *Cc: *vwoolf at lists.osu.edu
>>> *Subject: *Re: [Vwoolf] "the 'ignorance' of privilege"
>>>
>>>
>>> Ah, yes. Something to fall back on. I was majoring in chemistry, with a
>>> place at Stanford for graduate school, and my mother, who was paying for
>>> books and living expenses (tuition was via scholarship), insisted that I
>>> take some classes in the ZjQcmQRYFpfptBannerStart
>>>
>>> This Message Is From an External Sender
>>>
>>> This message came from outside your organization.
>>>
>>> * Report Suspicious *
>>> <https://us-phishalarm-ewt.proofpoint.com/EWT/v1/KGKeukY!vYQd06kp6AmuxBn9X8RunQqHUEbl-RkoKf3FxDVFYeZwgRPTZlOjalu9o4aP8FTew3GHAG1gmcdHkoHQVrrcD1UQS6kcrPt0ADuFmZUJ_9D8njT07IiuK-vYzDeO9dg$>
>>> ?
>>>
>>> ZjQcmQRYFpfptBannerEnd
>>>
>>> Ah, yes. Something to fall back on. I was majoring in chemistry, with a
>>> place at Stanford for graduate school, and my mother, who was paying for
>>> books and living expenses (tuition was via scholarship), insisted that I
>>> take some classes in the education department because, and I do quote
>>> exactly here, "If a woman can't do anything else, she can always teach or
>>> be a secretary."
>>>
>>> Bless her heart. What a lovely vote of confidence! At least that's how I
>>> took it at the time, though she might have meant "If a woman isn't
>>> permitted to do anything else..." And the education classes were utter
>>> DRECK -- I despair for Kentucky schools, I really do --
>>>
>>> Then again, she might have had a point. I have an unfashionable regional
>>> accent, and a friend of mine who also moved to the Bay Area ended up
>>> working on a loading dock, because companies wouldn't hire her as a
>>> front-desk receptionist because of her accent. I am sure that, when I did
>>> go to get a job, I probably had a harder time of it than those who sounded
>>> like the announcers on TV.
>>>
>>>
>>> That was -*cough*- decades ago. I do hope things have changed...
>>>
>>>
>>> Mary Ellen
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sat, Apr 16, 2022 at 11:04 AM Stuart N. Clarke via Vwoolf <
>>> vwoolf at lists.osu.edu> wrote:
>>>
>>> I know this isn?t really relevant to the listserv, but it will resonate
>>> with those of you who (like me) come from working-class backgrounds:
>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-61107909__;!!KGKeukY!nFal9DRbOCfRkUJdMCtxuqWWndEXEnXZIDHGOiwSY_xPsWrCj0H7DitH9BXyThYUeww$
>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-61107909__;!!KGKeukY!gH-UkaXScOEYmSgt3p90A7JoQTQcJ4dN6O9jRlCDe2ycgM-BLLdgP2srmOn2E73fqRA$>
>>> I saw a black woman on the TV the other day, ZjQcmQRYFpfptBannerStart
>>>
>>> *This Message Is From an External Sender *
>>>
>>> This message came from outside your organization.
>>>
>>> Report Suspicious
>>> <https://us-phishalarm-ewt.proofpoint.com/EWT/v1/KGKeukY!sGQdnYZBTacuxBeRP86E9ytrKK29SD1lBfSnj2jVIEkfe1VTgCvMGf8ELi80f2URD_mFqdu97wP3C-5Eqg9XCC1_uP24eg$>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ZjQcmQRYFpfptBannerEnd
>>>
>>> I know this isn?t really relevant to the listserv, but it will resonate
>>> with those of you who (like me) come from working-class backgrounds:
>>>
>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-61107909__;!!KGKeukY!nFal9DRbOCfRkUJdMCtxuqWWndEXEnXZIDHGOiwSY_xPsWrCj0H7DitH9BXyThYUeww$
>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-61107909__;!!KGKeukY!jqPe0meTvr01hNVZznnvkz6Z06TNnQ2kd0H0ZG40o5HZ1vHKY6J7qH1mDiJtWqW9MV4$>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I saw a black woman on the TV the other day, who went to the careers?
>>> advisor at school and said she wanted to go to university. ?What about
>>> secretarial college??
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Which reminds me of Sylvia Plath and her mother: go to secretarial college
>>> and you?ll have something to fall back on. From memory, in ?The Bell Jar?
>>> she didn?t want to type interesting letters for some man, but write
>>> interesting letters herself.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I remember telling a Woolfian acquaintance that I had never wanted to
>>> work, never had any idea of what to do. She was surprised/shocked: ?What
>>> about publishing??
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I then fantasised about going back in time and telling my parents that I
>>> wanted to go into publishing, and their subsequent conversation in their
>>> bedroom:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ?Where?s Lord Muck got *this* idea from??
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ?Well, he hasnae got it from me.?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Stuart
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Vwoolf mailing list
>>> Vwoolf at lists.osu.edu
>>> https://lists.osu.edu/mailman/listinfo/vwoolf
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Vwoolf mailing list
>>> Vwoolf at lists.osu.edu
>>> https://lists.osu.edu/mailman/listinfo/vwoolf
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Vwoolf mailing list
>>> Vwoolf at lists.osu.edu
>>> https://lists.osu.edu/mailman/listinfo/vwoolf
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Vwoolf mailing list
>>> Vwoolf at lists.osu.edu
>>> https://lists.osu.edu/mailman/listinfo/vwoolf
>>>
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>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Subject: Digest Footer
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>> _______________________________________________
>> Vwoolf mailing list
>> Vwoolf at lists.osu.edu
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>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> End of Vwoolf Digest, Vol 119, Issue 27
>> ***************************************
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2022 08:56:09 +0000
> From: Jeremy Hawthorn <jeremy.hawthorn at ntnu.no>
> To: Palvasha von Hassell <p_v_hassell at t-online.de>,
> "vwoolf at lists.osu.edu" <vwoolf at lists.osu.edu>
> Subject: Re: [Vwoolf] Ignorance of privilege, Diana Swanson
> Message-ID:
> <SV0P279MB0410DF20D148C3A88D51D7CCE7F39 at SV0P279MB0410.NORP279.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> !-------------------------------------------------------------------|
> This Message Is From an External Sender
> This message came from outside your organization.
> |-------------------------------------------------------------------!
>
> The thing that bothers me about Three Guineas is that when reference is made to the work today, its subject is often stated as it is below: "patriarchy and the subjugation of women . . .". But Woolf repeatedly states that her concern in the text is not with "women" in general, but with "the daughters of educated men." This I think represents very much a contraction of concern from that of A Room of One's Own. It is as if in the later work Woolf shares Forster's (admittedly partly ironic) view that the very poor (or even just the poor) are "unthinkable." This does not render the Woolf's case irrelevant, but it does reduce the ethical challenge of the book.
>
> Jeremy H
>
> -----Opprinnelig melding-----
> Fra: Vwoolf <vwoolf-bounces+jeremy.hawthorn=hf.ntnu.no at lists.osu.edu> P? vegne av Palvasha von Hassell via Vwoolf
> Sendt: mandag 18. april 2022 10:28
> Til: vwoolf at lists.osu.edu
> Emne: Re: [Vwoolf] Ignorance of privilege, Diana Swanson
>
> !-------------------------------------------------------------------|
> This Message Is From an External Sender
> This message came from outside your organization.
> |-------------------------------------------------------------------!
>
> Very interesting point; I think there are (at least) two kinds of ignorance, unconscious and conscious or wilful. The former relates to comfortably situated members of an affluent society who are simply oblivious to the grinding poverty and lack of opportunity of others anywhere in the world. An example of the latter (conscious or wilful ignorance) would be patriarchy and the subjugation of women with their corresponding disqualification from being influential members of society as women, the subject matter of Three Guineas. So in this sense, certainly.
>
> Palvasha von Hassell
> M.Phil. IR (Selwyn 1985)
> Cambridge University
>
> Am M?hlenteich 35
> 25436 Uetersen
> Germany
>
> ++49 15161626162
>
>> On 17. Apr 2022, at 23:16, vwoolf-request at lists.osu.edu wrote:
>>
>> ?Send Vwoolf mailing list submissions to
>> vwoolf at lists.osu.edu
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>> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
>> than "Re: Contents of Vwoolf digest..."
>>
>>
>> Today's Topics:
>>
>> 1. Re: "the 'ignorance' of privilege" (DIANA SWANSON)
>> 2. Re: "the 'ignorance' of privilege" (George Entenman)
>>
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 1
>> Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2022 15:45:21 -0500 (CDT)
>> From: DIANA SWANSON <diana_swanson at comcast.net>
>> To: "vwoolf at lists.osu.edu" <vwoolf at lists.osu.edu>
>> Subject: Re: [Vwoolf] "the 'ignorance' of privilege"
>> Message-ID: <1512951983.2302617.1650228322045 at connect.xfinity.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>>
>> I'd like to get back to Stuart's original point (at least as I saw it): the privilege of not knowing--not needing to know, not being forced to know, and getting away without knowing--about oppression and privilege. To quote the beginning of the article that Stuart linked, "Sienna Miller says her new Netflix drama highlights the 'ignorance' of people who don't realise they have a head start in life and 'don't think' about the struggles of those without the same privileges." This kind of privileged ignorance is often about class or race or sex/gender or various permutations/combinations thereof. Isn't that in part what Three Guineas is about?
>>
>> Diana
>>
>>>> On 04/17/2022 3:27 PM Mark Scott via Vwoolf <vwoolf at lists.osu.edu> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> I took a typing class in high school. I think it was an elective
>>> course. There were a few of those in my high school back in the early
>>> 1970s. As it turns out, it proved to be the most valuable, or at
>>> least, practical skill I learned during ZjQcmQRYFpfptBannerStart
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> This Message Is From an External Sender
>>> This message came from outside your organization.
>>>
>>> Report Suspicious
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ZjQcmQRYFpfptBannerEnd
>>> I took a typing class in high school. I think it was an elective course. There were a few of those in my high school back in the early 1970s. As it turns out, it proved to be the most valuable, or at least, practical skill I learned during my young life in terms of making a living.
>>>
>>> Mark Scott
>>> Common Reader
>>>
>>> From: Jeremy Hawthorn via Vwoolf
>>> Sent: Sunday, April 17, 2022 1:12 AM
>>> To: vwoolf at lists.osu.edu
>>> Subject: Re: [Vwoolf] "the 'ignorance' of privilege"
>>>
>>> The supreme irony in all this is that we would all have benefitted from a basic course in typing at school. With work on PCs well-nigh universal, the skill of typing is accordingly almost universally useful. As a boy in England I was forced ZjQcmQRYFpfptBannerStart
>>> This Message Is From an External Sender
>>> This message came from outside your organization.
>>>
>>> Report Suspicious https://us-phishalarm-ewt.proofpoint.com/EWT/v1/KGKeukY!vOQf0UZNA6bhRRdxHw6kd97wkc7MCpwKUTGVsKuKAZk5KdHnYEAgyYOmU389u45j9YVf2yS4KQbCOZca0pazDp2sWHNsB40AJnGuPxlsqmX8bIJz4w56JnmBiwVU1-8ZzK5L1jkRpdcXkQ$ ?
>>> ZjQcmQRYFpfptBannerEnd
>>>
>>> The supreme irony in all this is that we would all have benefitted
>>> from a basic course in typing at school. With work on PCs well-nigh
>>> universal, the skill of typing is accordingly almost universally
>>> useful. As a boy in England I was forced to study woodwork and
>>> metalwork, at both of which I was so incompetent that one teacher hit
>>> me hard across the head with a length of wood. Ah, the good old days.
>>> Had I learned to type properly, I might this very moment be using
>>> more that two fingers to type. Mind you, that is double the number
>>> used by an old friend who worked as a lawyer all his life. So women
>>> in the professions who were forced to take courses in typing have the
>>> last laugh on us men here I think
>>>
>>>
>>> Jeremy H
>>>
>>>
>>> Fra: Vwoolf <vwoolf-bounces at lists.osu.edu> P? vegne av Danell Jones via Vwoolf
>>> Sendt: l?rdag 16. april 2022 22:32
>>> Til: Mary Ellen Foley <mefoleyuk at gmail.com>; Stuart N. Clarke <stuart.n.clarke at btinternet.com>
>>> Kopi: vwoolf at lists.osu.edu
>>> Emne: Re: [Vwoolf] "the 'ignorance' of privilege"
>>>
>>>
>>> My mother also told me that I had to take a typing class in high
>>> school because then I would always have something to ?fall back on.?
>>> As I remember it, secretarial work was considered not just safe but
>>> respectable and even a little upwardly ZjQcmQRYFpfptBannerStart
>>>
>>> This Message Is From an External Sender
>>>
>>> This message came from outside your organization.
>>>
>>> Report Suspicious https://us-phishalarm-ewt.proofpoint.com/EWT/v1/KGKeukY!sSQT10yJiY0IqrMRvC6qfG79i0EVOqvSFxlW4bnp_TG5x7G7B1cxg2mhNkUI0KzdAfuU_nAfriiN4b80$ ?
>>>
>>> ZjQcmQRYFpfptBannerEnd
>>>
>>> My mother also told me that I had to take a typing class in high school because then I would always have something to ?fall back on.?
>>>
>>>
>>> As I remember it, secretarial work was considered not just safe but respectable and even a little upwardly mobile. (Neither of my grandmothers could type.) There was a sense that being a secretary in an office was a safe, professional job that meant you didn?t have to do manual labor.
>>>
>>>
>>> I don?t know if this is an American thing, but even though I had a typical middle-class upbringing, a fear of losing everything was threaded through it. Poverty and failure lurked in the shadows. My dad was an Okie, so that probably explains a lot.
>>>
>>>
>>> Danell
>>>
>>>
>>> Sent from Mail
>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=55
>>> 0986__;!!KGKeukY!jqrSQRZMBTz2bdCXMuPWJXIGhp6tJVxJoyR_JIhgjNVCyRSwhKWD
>>> xCxfySg_mTEAEYA$ for Windows
>>>
>>>
>>> From: Mary Ellen Foley via Vwoolf
>>> Sent: Saturday, April 16, 2022 12:41 PM
>>> To: Stuart N. Clarke
>>> Cc: vwoolf at lists.osu.edu
>>> Subject: Re: [Vwoolf] "the 'ignorance' of privilege"
>>>
>>>
>>> Ah, yes. Something to fall back on. I was majoring in chemistry,
>>> with a place at Stanford for graduate school, and my mother, who was
>>> paying for books and living expenses (tuition was via scholarship),
>>> insisted that I take some classes in the ZjQcmQRYFpfptBannerStart
>>>
>>> This Message Is From an External Sender
>>>
>>> This message came from outside your organization.
>>>
>>> Report Suspicious https://us-phishalarm-ewt.proofpoint.com/EWT/v1/KGKeukY!vYQd06kp6AmuxBn9X8RunQqHUEbl-RkoKf3FxDVFYeZwgRPTZlOjalu9o4aP8FTew3GHAG1gmcdHkoHQVrrcD1UQS6kcrPt0ADuFmZUJ_9D8njT07IiuK-vYzDeO9dg$ ?
>>>
>>> ZjQcmQRYFpfptBannerEnd
>>>
>>> Ah, yes. Something to fall back on. I was majoring in chemistry, with a place at Stanford for graduate school, and my mother, who was paying for books and living expenses (tuition was via scholarship), insisted that I take some classes in the education department because, and I do quote exactly here, "If a woman can't do anything else, she can always teach or be a secretary."
>>>
>>> Bless her heart. What a lovely vote of confidence! At least
>>> that's how I took it at the time, though she might have meant "If a
>>> woman isn't permitted to do anything else..." And the education
>>> classes were utter DRECK -- I despair for Kentucky schools, I really
>>> do --
>>>
>>> Then again, she might have had a point. I have an unfashionable regional accent, and a friend of mine who also moved to the Bay Area ended up working on a loading dock, because companies wouldn't hire her as a front-desk receptionist because of her accent. I am sure that, when I did go to get a job, I probably had a harder time of it than those who sounded like the announcers on TV.
>>>
>>>
>>> That was -*cough*- decades ago. I do hope things have changed...
>>>
>>>
>>> Mary Ellen
>>>
>>>
>>>> On Sat, Apr 16, 2022 at 11:04 AM Stuart N. Clarke via Vwoolf <vwoolf at lists.osu.edu> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>> I know this isn?t really relevant to the listserv, but it
>>>> will resonate with those of you who (like me) come from
>>>> working-class backgrounds:
>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment
>>>> -arts-61107909__;!!KGKeukY!jX4HTzVYPjFIcQXcq-4fUNETBAn0YpXcg4eHBrxdK
>>>> 4JsiC3_35jNOfW66az4W62HJ9c$
>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-
>>>> arts-61107909__;!!KGKeukY!gH-UkaXScOEYmSgt3p90A7JoQTQcJ4dN6O9jRlCDe2
>>>> ycgM-BLLdgP2srmOn2E73fqRA$ I saw a black woman on the TV the other
>>>> day, ZjQcmQRYFpfptBannerStart
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> This Message Is From an External Sender
>>>>
>>>> This message came from outside your organization.
>>>>
>>>> Report Suspicious
>>>> https://us-phishalarm-ewt.proofpoint.com/EWT/v1/KGKeukY!sGQdnYZBTacu
>>>> xBeRP86E9ytrKK29SD1lBfSnj2jVIEkfe1VTgCvMGf8ELi80f2URD_mFqdu97wP3C-5E
>>>> qg9XCC1_uP24eg$
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ZjQcmQRYFpfptBannerEnd
>>>>
>>>> I know this isn?t really relevant to the listserv, but it will resonate with those of you who (like me) come from working-class backgrounds:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment
>>>> -arts-61107909__;!!KGKeukY!jX4HTzVYPjFIcQXcq-4fUNETBAn0YpXcg4eHBrxdK
>>>> 4JsiC3_35jNOfW66az4W62HJ9c$
>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-
>>>> arts-61107909__;!!KGKeukY!jqPe0meTvr01hNVZznnvkz6Z06TNnQ2kd0H0ZG40o5
>>>> HZ1vHKY6J7qH1mDiJtWqW9MV4$
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I saw a black woman on the TV the other day, who went to the careers? advisor at school and said she wanted to go to university. ?What about secretarial college??
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Which reminds me of Sylvia Plath and her mother: go to secretarial college and you?ll have something to fall back on. From memory, in ?The Bell Jar? she didn?t want to type interesting letters for some man, but write interesting letters herself.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I remember telling a Woolfian acquaintance that I had never wanted to work, never had any idea of what to do. She was surprised/shocked: ?What about publishing??
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I then fantasised about going back in time and telling my parents that I wanted to go into publishing, and their subsequent conversation in their bedroom:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ?Where?s Lord Muck got *this* idea from??
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ?Well, he hasnae got it from me.?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Stuart
>>>>
>>>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Vwoolf mailing list
>>> Vwoolf at lists.osu.edu
>>> https://lists.osu.edu/mailman/listinfo/vwoolf
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ---------------------------------------------
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Vwoolf mailing list
>>> Vwoolf at lists.osu.edu
>>> https://lists.osu.edu/mailman/listinfo/vwoolf
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Vwoolf mailing list
>>> Vwoolf at lists.osu.edu
>>> https://lists.osu.edu/mailman/listinfo/vwoolf
>>>
>> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was
>> scrubbed...
>> URL:
>> <http://lists.osu.edu/pipermail/vwoolf/attachments/20220417/ac84cee8/a
>> ttachment-0001.html>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 2
>> Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2022 17:15:31 -0400
>> From: George Entenman <ge at entenman.net>
>> To: DIANA SWANSON <diana_swanson at comcast.net>
>> Cc: "vwoolf at lists.osu.edu" <vwoolf at lists.osu.edu>
>> Subject: Re: [Vwoolf] "the 'ignorance' of privilege"
>> Message-ID:
>>
>> <CA+1z_8dJQPDF0+MgtuDGRWqxKTuUPnFMAP623tq7QV83BQ6n+g at mail.gmail.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>>
>> This thread reminds me of a conversation I had yesterday with a
>> prominent doctor at a local hospital.
>>
>> She caught COVID some time ago and has still not completely recovered.
>> She was on oxygen for two months because she felt as if she were suffocating.
>> (She said she would have probably died if she'd contracted COVID
>> earlier because she would have been put on a ventilator, which turned
>> out to increase mortality for still undetermined reasons.)
>>
>> This reminds me of *a different kind of ignorance of privilege: that
>> of those whose health has been good*. My doctor friend told me how
>> eye-opening it was for her to be in the hospital as a critically ill
>> patient.
>>
>> - ge, chapel hill, nc
>>
>> On Sun, Apr 17, 2022 at 4:45 PM DIANA SWANSON via Vwoolf <
>> vwoolf at lists.osu.edu> wrote:
>>
>>> I'd like to get back to Stuart's original point (at least as I saw it):
>>> the privilege of not knowing--not needing to know, not being forced
>>> to know, and getting away without knowing--about oppression and
>>> privilege. To quote the beginning of ZjQcmQRYFpfptBannerStart This
>>> Message Is From an External Sender This message came from outside
>>> your organization.
>>> Report Suspicious
>>>
>>> <https://us-phishalarm-ewt.proofpoint.com/EWT/v1/KGKeukY!s8QTnSZhQsag
>>> S5gxfE7EF1EzHEpPeqIvGyljGKJaRPHF5dL0BC7f7ovQeg2_8w6aRudsd9FPkt_IAOAJe
>>> zZ0Upy7NavEXG7IzAa2yrgiYT7o$>
>>>
>>> ZjQcmQRYFpfptBannerEnd
>>> I'd like to get back to Stuart's original point (at least as I saw it):
>>> the privilege of not knowing--not needing to know, not being forced
>>> to know, and getting away without knowing--about oppression and
>>> privilege. To quote the beginning of the article that Stuart linked,
>>> "Sienna Miller says her new Netflix drama highlights the 'ignorance'
>>> of people who don't realise they have a head start in life and 'don't
>>> think' about the struggles of those without the same privileges."
>>> This kind of privileged ignorance is often about class or race or
>>> sex/gender or various permutations/combinations thereof. Isn't that
>>> in part what *Three Guineas* is about?
>>>
>>> Diana
>>>
>>>> On 04/17/2022 3:27 PM Mark Scott via Vwoolf <vwoolf at lists.osu.edu> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> I took a typing class in high school. I think it was an elective course.
>>> There were a few of those in my high school back in the early 1970s.
>>> As it turns out, it proved to be the most valuable, or at least,
>>> practical skill I learned during ZjQcmQRYFpfptBannerStart This
>>> Message Is From an External Sender This message came from outside
>>> your organization.
>>> Report Suspicious
>>>
>>> ZjQcmQRYFpfptBannerEnd
>>> I took a typing class in high school. I think it was an elective course.
>>> There were a few of those in my high school back in the early 1970s.
>>> As it turns out, it proved to be the most valuable, or at least,
>>> practical skill I learned during my young life in terms of making a living.
>>>
>>> Mark Scott
>>> Common Reader
>>>
>>> *From:* Jeremy Hawthorn via Vwoolf
>>> *Sent:* Sunday, April 17, 2022 1:12 AM
>>> *To:* vwoolf at lists.osu.edu
>>> *Subject:* Re: [Vwoolf] "the 'ignorance' of privilege"
>>>
>>> The supreme irony in all this is that we would all have benefitted
>>> from a basic course in typing at school. With work on PCs well-nigh
>>> universal, the skill of typing is accordingly almost universally
>>> useful. As a boy in England I was forced ZjQcmQRYFpfptBannerStart
>>> This Message Is From an External Sender This message came from
>>> outside your organization.
>>> * Report Suspicious *
>>> <https://us-phishalarm-ewt.proofpoint.com/EWT/v1/KGKeukY!vOQf0UZNA6bh
>>> RRdxHw6kd97wkc7MCpwKUTGVsKuKAZk5KdHnYEAgyYOmU389u45j9YVf2yS4KQbCOZca0
>>> pazDp2sWHNsB40AJnGuPxlsqmX8bIJz4w56JnmBiwVU1-8ZzK5L1jkRpdcXkQ$>
>>> ?
>>> ZjQcmQRYFpfptBannerEnd
>>>
>>> The supreme irony in all this is that we would *all* have benefitted
>>> from a basic course in typing at school. With work on PCs well-nigh
>>> universal, the skill of typing is accordingly almost universally
>>> useful. As a boy in England I was forced to study woodwork and
>>> metalwork, at both of which I was so incompetent that one teacher hit
>>> me hard across the head with a length of wood. Ah, the good old days.
>>> Had I learned to type properly, I might this very moment be using
>>> more that two fingers to type. Mind you, that is double the number
>>> used by an old friend who worked as a lawyer all his life. So women
>>> in the professions who were forced to take courses in typing have the
>>> last laugh on us men here I think
>>>
>>>
>>> Jeremy H
>>>
>>>
>>> *Fra:* Vwoolf <vwoolf-bounces at lists.osu.edu> *P? vegne av *Danell
>>> Jones via Vwoolf
>>> *Sendt:* l?rdag 16. april 2022 22:32
>>> *Til:* Mary Ellen Foley <mefoleyuk at gmail.com>; Stuart N. Clarke <
>>> stuart.n.clarke at btinternet.com>
>>> *Kopi:* vwoolf at lists.osu.edu
>>> *Emne:* Re: [Vwoolf] "the 'ignorance' of privilege"
>>>
>>>
>>> My mother also told me that I had to take a typing class in high
>>> school because then I would always have something to ?fall back on.?
>>> As I remember it, secretarial work was considered not just safe but
>>> respectable and even a little upwardly ZjQcmQRYFpfptBannerStart
>>>
>>> This Message Is From an External Sender
>>>
>>> This message came from outside your organization.
>>>
>>> * Report Suspicious *
>>> <https://us-phishalarm-ewt.proofpoint.com/EWT/v1/KGKeukY!sSQT10yJiY0I
>>> qrMRvC6qfG79i0EVOqvSFxlW4bnp_TG5x7G7B1cxg2mhNkUI0KzdAfuU_nAfriiN4b80$
>>>>
>>> ?
>>>
>>> ZjQcmQRYFpfptBannerEnd
>>>
>>> My mother also told me that I had to take a typing class in high
>>> school because then I would always have something to ?fall back on.?
>>>
>>>
>>> As I remember it, secretarial work was considered not just safe but
>>> respectable and even a little upwardly mobile. (Neither of my
>>> grandmothers could type.) There was a sense that being a secretary in
>>> an office was a safe, professional job that meant you didn?t have to do manual labor.
>>>
>>>
>>> I don?t know if this is an American thing, but even though I had a
>>> typical middle-class upbringing, a fear of losing everything was
>>> threaded through it. Poverty and failure lurked in the shadows. My
>>> dad was an Okie, so that probably explains a lot.
>>>
>>>
>>> Danell
>>>
>>>
>>> Sent from Mail
>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=5
>>> 50986__;!!KGKeukY!jqrSQRZMBTz2bdCXMuPWJXIGhp6tJVxJoyR_JIhgjNVCyRSwhKW
>>> DxCxfySg_mTEAEYA$>
>>> for Windows
>>>
>>>
>>> *From: *Mary Ellen Foley via Vwoolf
>>> *Sent: *Saturday, April 16, 2022 12:41 PM
>>> *To: *Stuart N. Clarke
>>> *Cc: *vwoolf at lists.osu.edu
>>> *Subject: *Re: [Vwoolf] "the 'ignorance' of privilege"
>>>
>>>
>>> Ah, yes. Something to fall back on. I was majoring in chemistry, with
>>> a place at Stanford for graduate school, and my mother, who was
>>> paying for books and living expenses (tuition was via scholarship),
>>> insisted that I take some classes in the ZjQcmQRYFpfptBannerStart
>>>
>>> This Message Is From an External Sender
>>>
>>> This message came from outside your organization.
>>>
>>> * Report Suspicious *
>>> <https://us-phishalarm-ewt.proofpoint.com/EWT/v1/KGKeukY!vYQd06kp6Amu
>>> xBn9X8RunQqHUEbl-RkoKf3FxDVFYeZwgRPTZlOjalu9o4aP8FTew3GHAG1gmcdHkoHQV
>>> rrcD1UQS6kcrPt0ADuFmZUJ_9D8njT07IiuK-vYzDeO9dg$>
>>> ?
>>>
>>> ZjQcmQRYFpfptBannerEnd
>>>
>>> Ah, yes. Something to fall back on. I was majoring in chemistry,
>>> with a place at Stanford for graduate school, and my mother, who was
>>> paying for books and living expenses (tuition was via scholarship),
>>> insisted that I take some classes in the education department
>>> because, and I do quote exactly here, "If a woman can't do anything
>>> else, she can always teach or be a secretary."
>>>
>>> Bless her heart. What a lovely vote of confidence! At least that's
>>> how I took it at the time, though she might have meant "If a woman
>>> isn't permitted to do anything else..." And the education classes
>>> were utter DRECK -- I despair for Kentucky schools, I really do --
>>>
>>> Then again, she might have had a point. I have an unfashionable
>>> regional accent, and a friend of mine who also moved to the Bay Area
>>> ended up working on a loading dock, because companies wouldn't hire
>>> her as a front-desk receptionist because of her accent. I am sure
>>> that, when I did go to get a job, I probably had a harder time of it
>>> than those who sounded like the announcers on TV.
>>>
>>>
>>> That was -*cough*- decades ago. I do hope things have changed...
>>>
>>>
>>> Mary Ellen
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sat, Apr 16, 2022 at 11:04 AM Stuart N. Clarke via Vwoolf <
>>> vwoolf at lists.osu.edu> wrote:
>>>
>>> I know this isn?t really relevant to the listserv, but it will
>>> resonate with those of you who (like me) come from working-class backgrounds:
>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-
>>> arts-61107909__;!!KGKeukY!nFal9DRbOCfRkUJdMCtxuqWWndEXEnXZIDHGOiwSY_x
>>> PsWrCj0H7DitH9BXyThYUeww$
>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-
>>> arts-61107909__;!!KGKeukY!gH-UkaXScOEYmSgt3p90A7JoQTQcJ4dN6O9jRlCDe2y
>>> cgM-BLLdgP2srmOn2E73fqRA$> I saw a black woman on the TV the other
>>> day, ZjQcmQRYFpfptBannerStart
>>>
>>> *This Message Is From an External Sender *
>>>
>>> This message came from outside your organization.
>>>
>>> Report Suspicious
>>> <https://us-phishalarm-ewt.proofpoint.com/EWT/v1/KGKeukY!sGQdnYZBTacu
>>> xBeRP86E9ytrKK29SD1lBfSnj2jVIEkfe1VTgCvMGf8ELi80f2URD_mFqdu97wP3C-5Eq
>>> g9XCC1_uP24eg$>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ZjQcmQRYFpfptBannerEnd
>>>
>>> I know this isn?t really relevant to the listserv, but it will
>>> resonate with those of you who (like me) come from working-class backgrounds:
>>>
>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-
>>> arts-61107909__;!!KGKeukY!nFal9DRbOCfRkUJdMCtxuqWWndEXEnXZIDHGOiwSY_x
>>> PsWrCj0H7DitH9BXyThYUeww$
>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-
>>> arts-61107909__;!!KGKeukY!jqPe0meTvr01hNVZznnvkz6Z06TNnQ2kd0H0ZG40o5H
>>> Z1vHKY6J7qH1mDiJtWqW9MV4$>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I saw a black woman on the TV the other day, who went to the careers?
>>> advisor at school and said she wanted to go to university. ?What
>>> about secretarial college??
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Which reminds me of Sylvia Plath and her mother: go to secretarial
>>> college and you?ll have something to fall back on. From memory, in ?The Bell Jar?
>>> she didn?t want to type interesting letters for some man, but write
>>> interesting letters herself.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I remember telling a Woolfian acquaintance that I had never wanted to
>>> work, never had any idea of what to do. She was surprised/shocked:
>>> ?What about publishing??
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I then fantasised about going back in time and telling my parents
>>> that I wanted to go into publishing, and their subsequent
>>> conversation in their
>>> bedroom:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ?Where?s Lord Muck got *this* idea from??
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ?Well, he hasnae got it from me.?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Stuart
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Vwoolf mailing list
>>> Vwoolf at lists.osu.edu
>>> https://lists.osu.edu/mailman/listinfo/vwoolf
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------
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>>> _______________________________________________
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>>> Vwoolf at lists.osu.edu
>>> https://lists.osu.edu/mailman/listinfo/vwoolf
>>>
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