[Vwoolf] What do you think these are?

annemarie bantzinger ambantzinger at hotmail.com
Tue Sep 30 01:30:44 EDT 2014




 Dear all, dear Julie, When I first saw the image my feeling was the tube and the discs were some kind of game. This seems to be a general feeling reading the comments. Allow me to pass on some knowledge from a Dutch painting expert - altho he really would like to see a larger image -.  It seems to him  " the 'telescope' is more likely to be a tube or case filled with circular discs ment for some kind of game,  two of which are already shaken out, A telescope with its protective covers seems unlikely to me. The very first telescopes were only in existance for a year when the painting was done.Oddly enough there is a small hole in the first disc of the case and I cant see any holes in the discs on the table. You might think of a telescope but the young man is holding the tube in such a way that it seems like he wants to roll something out of it, it is not the way to hold a telescope. May be you can find a game from the period, a game with or without the holes in the discs. I think they started out without a hole and during restauration ( there almost arent any 17th century paintings without it) something was added or painted away. E.g. the restaurer might have thought it was a telescope and made a suggestion  of a lens on the disc or the holes in the discs on the table are painted away.It happens often that art historians trying to interpret a painting are misled by old restaurations and/or later over painting. I would find it interesting to research whether the first black circle in front of the white circle of the tube is a later addition, in that case one can rule it being a telescope". end of quote. I hope this all helps Julie. Good luck!AnneMarie  > From: mhussey at verizon.net> To: caroline.webb at newcastle.edu.au; danelljones at bresnan.net; jeannette_smyth at earthlink.net; VWOOLF at lists.acs.ohio-state.edu> Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2014 21:26:57 -0400> Subject: Re: [Vwoolf] What do you think these are?> > Is there really no art historical writing about Cornelius Nuie?  Seems like> an opening for someone!> > -----Original Message-----> From: Vwoolf [mailto:vwoolf-bounces at lists.osu.edu] On Behalf Of Caroline> Webb> Sent: Monday, September 29, 2014 7:50 PM> To: Danell Jones; 'Jeannette Smyth'; VWOOLF at lists.acs.ohio-state.edu> Subject: Re: [Vwoolf] What do you think these are?> > Hi all,> > I'm not actually convinced that the larger object is a telescope/spyglass.> Is this an accepted identification?  Telescopes were very new indeed> (Wikipedia says 1608, but Gribbin's History of Science says it was developed> by Leonard Digges in the 1550s but not publicised for a long time).  That's> not in itself necessarily a problem--nobles were patrons and made a point of> getting new things--but this one looks seriously small, even if what we're> seeing is the eye-piece; in fact there seems to be indentation just past> there, which wouldn't make sense for a telescope.  It looks to me to be a> recorder, a very popular instrument at the time--we're seeing the bottom end> of it.  The boy is being shown as a musician, a respectable amateur activity> for a noble; Henry VIII (yes, that was earlier) owned 76 recorders,> apparently, and was a composer himself.> > In any case I don't think the pale objects are felt pads.  In this sort of> painting the details are important/symbolic, and I don't see these> particular accessories (to telescope or recorder) being seen as worthy of> inclusion.  Game counters seem much more likely.> > Caroline> -----Original Message-----> From: Vwoolf [mailto:vwoolf-bounces at lists.osu.edu] On Behalf Of Danell Jones> Sent: Tuesday, 30 September 2014 3:37 AM> To: 'Jeannette Smyth'; VWOOLF at lists.acs.ohio-state.edu> Subject: Re: [Vwoolf] What do you think these are?> > How about pieces from a board game? One for each boy--suggesting they are> players in some large game or intrigue? > > If  you know where it is/who owns it, I am sure you could write to the> curator and ask what they are.> > When you find out, let us know!> > Danell> > -----Original Message-----> From: Vwoolf [mailto:vwoolf-bounces at lists.osu.edu] On Behalf Of Jeannette> Smyth> Sent: Monday, September 29, 2014 11:23 AM> To: VWOOLF at lists.acs.ohio-state.edu> Subject: Re: [Vwoolf] What do you think these are?> > They pixelate when zoomed on. I think they look like lens caps, not separate> lenses, as I first thought. I do think they are accessories for the> telescope and not felt pads. Would not a nobelman's telescope in 1610 have> its own fitted case, and not be left lying out on the cocktail table?> > I suspect, that in 1610, when Galileo himself was discovering Jupiter's> moons through a telescope, young Edward's telescope symbolizes everything> Renaissance/heliocentric/humanist that could be symbolized. Lens caps off!> Yet, it revolves!!! (Galileo was not declared a heretic until 1616, I think.> But there was Copernicus to deal with.)> > Jeannette Smyth> > On Sep 29, 2014, at 8:20 AM, Vandivere, Julie wrote:> > > > > > > The first edition of Orlando had this as one of its illustrations.  > > What> do you think the little white circles are on the table? > > > > I know the illustration was done at Knole by an unknown artist and is > > of> Edward Sackville West "The Two Sons of Edward, 4th Earl of Dorset by> Cornelius Nule in about 1610. In Orlando, the painting appears in black and> white, but here I am including the colored one because I would love> speculation on what the two white dots on the table are. They look like felt> pads.  I know this might seem a bit silly, but I'm using the painting to> make an argument.> > > > They look like felt pads and might be to guard the glass on the > > telescope> that is lying on the table. But I'd hate to make that argument without some> input. Necco wafers?> > > > > > > > <ORL_13585127053.jpeg>> > _______________________________________________> > Vwoolf mailing list> > Vwoolf at lists.osu.edu> > https://lists.osu.edu/mailman/listinfo/vwoolf> > _______________________________________________> Vwoolf mailing list> Vwoolf at lists.osu.edu> https://lists.osu.edu/mailman/listinfo/vwoolf> > _______________________________________________> Vwoolf mailing list> Vwoolf at lists.osu.edu> https://lists.osu.edu/mailman/listinfo/vwoolf> _______________________________________________> Vwoolf mailing list> Vwoolf at lists.osu.edu> https://lists.osu.edu/mailman/listinfo/vwoolf> > _______________________________________________> Vwoolf mailing list> Vwoolf at lists.osu.edu> https://lists.osu.edu/mailman/listinfo/vwoolf
 		 	   		  
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