[Intl_DxMedPhys] ACR CT test question
Tyler Fisher
sdtyler at gmail.com
Tue Sep 15 13:35:33 EDT 2026
Hi Everyone,
This has been a very good discussion. I'll add my two cents but also state
up-front that I am the current chair of the ACR CT Physics Accreditation
Sub-Committee, so there may be a pro-ACR bias coming through.
In general, the ACR technical standards, QC Manuals, and Accreditation
program requirements are overlapping but independent. The QC manuals are
assembled and maintained by ACR staff and committees of volunteer members
who represent the accreditation programs and other stakeholders. Slight
variations in language or specifics like this are to be expected.
The intent of the "average-sized" language in the accreditation program, as
I interpret it, is site and scanner specific. When I test a CT system, I
will look through the patients scanned recently for what I think is their
standard adult abdomen protocol. I check the scout first to make sure
they're not tiny or bariatric, then I'll scroll through the primary axial
images until I get to mid-liver and record the mA. I'll take an average of
6 or 8 patients. I don't look at patient sex or age. If a site has
additional data (ACR DIR or dose-tracking software) that will give me
techniques for an average-sized patient, I'll use that, but more often than
not, the sites that I visit do not. This method would be more accurate
than my average of 6 or 8 scans, but I think we have to remember that the
majority of scanners in the country aren't being monitored like this. The
ACR would love for everyone to participate in the ACR DIR, but this is not
a requirement for accreditation. Also, we're measuring and reporting a
single CTDI value for a protocol whose standard deviation of CTDI values is
huge.
For new scanners, Scott's suggested methods all seem reasonable. I tend to
take my knowledge of similar (or exactly the same make/model) scanners, the
site's standard protocols for other scanners if available, default
protocols, and my own personal expertise to come up with an average
technique. I will note in my report that the protocols tested may not
match the clinical protocols established during applications training and
the next time I lay hands on that scanner, I'm going to closely review what
they're actually doing. Also, I'll make sure at acceptance testing that
the reported CTDI values match what I measure, so that if the protocols are
different than what I tested, at least they'll know that the doses are
accurate.
The discussion about finding a "21 or 23 cm effective diameter patient" to
set as the "average-patient" is wrong. The "DFOV close to 21 cm" is
strictly based on the size of the image quality phantom - it has nothing to
do with an average patient. If the image quality phantom was 30 cm
diameter, we'd tell you to scan with a DFOV close to 31 cm.
Last thing I'll say is this: The ACR believes that qualified diagnostic
medical physicists have the expertise and integrity to perform quality
medical physics testing on scanners. Can someone iteratively increase dose
to get CNR to pass? Of course. Can we cheat the average technique down to
make sure that we're within the dose thresholds? Sure. The accreditation
programs work on the assumption that we're all doing our best. The
programs try to balance being overly prescriptive on how to do every single
test vs. allowing physicists free-reign to do whatever we want. Over 25
years of the CT accreditation program, I think we've gotten pretty close to
the right balance, but as the chair, I'm open to suggestions of how we can
improve.
Thanks.
Tyler Fisher
Therapy Physics, Inc.
On Mon, Sep 14, 2026 at 1:53 PM Matt Wait via Intl_dxmedphys_wd_osu_list <
intl_dxmedphys_wd_osu_list at lists.osu.edu> wrote:
> To clarify: I had been going on the assumption that 70 kg correlated with
> a patient with an abdomen of about 21 cm in diameter. Maybe I had gotten it
> mixed up with the phantom diameter somewhere down the line. The point is, I
> don't really have
> To clarify: I had been going on the assumption that 70 kg correlated with
> a patient with an abdomen of about 21 cm in diameter. Maybe I had gotten it
> mixed up with the phantom diameter somewhere down the line.
>
> The point is, I don't really have any idea what the abdomen of a 70 kg
> patient "looks like". It would be much easier to have a rough estimate of
> an abdomen diameter range to use.
>
>
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> Wait, MS, DABR, DABSNM, MRSE*
>
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> Diagnostic Physicist
>
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>
> Associate Radiation Safety Officer
>
> Assistant Residency Director
>
> *Kaiser Permanente*
>
> *Southern Permanente Medical Group*
>
> Medical Imaging Technology and Informatics
> 4867 Sunset Blvd
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> (818) 232-2427 (mobile phone)
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>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* Douglas Pfeiffer <xraydoug at me.com>
> *Sent:* Monday, September 14, 2026 1:47 PM
> *To:* Matt Wait <Matt.Wait at kp.org>
> *Cc:* DxMedPhys List <intl_dxmedphys_wd_osu_list at lists.osu.edu>; Bob
> Kobistek <bob at rjkmedphys.com>
> *Subject:* Re: [Intl_DxMedPhys] ACR CT test question
>
> The 21 cm DFOV is to make it easier to analyze - nothing to do with
> patient size. It doesn’t impact dose in any way. Using a small Scan FOV is
> to reduce non-uniformities due to the bowtie not being matched to the
> object size on some scanners.
>
> Best regards,
> Doug
>
>
>
> Douglas Pfeiffer, MS, DABR FACR, FAAPM (he/him)
> Medical Physicist, Radiation Safety Officer
> Boulder Community Health
> xraydoug at me.com
> 303.415.7515 <(303)%20415-7515>
>
> +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-
>
> The opinions expressed in this message are the product of the gray and
> white matter loitering in my cranium. I speak for myself and no one else,
> unless I say otherwise.
>
> On Sep 14, 2026, at 2:42 PM, Matt Wait <Matt.Wait at kp.org> wrote:
>
> That's good to hear, that's the practice I've been using. But I have never
> found a good reference for correlating the abdomen diameter (21 cm?) with
> 70 kg.
>
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>
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.google.com/maps/search/4867*Sunset*Blvd**A0D*0A**A0D*0A*Los*Angeles,*CA*90027**A0D*0A**A0D*0A*x5347*(office?entry=gmail&source=g__;KysrJSUrJSUrKysrKyUlKyUlKys!!KGKeukY!x0papCM_iTVWnSTQkMc_SHwci_FgU-ejRnjPVU_cgUbJqe-P2hx_f5xsdNZb_QTzWtxmZZ6JO-vfe_fkP6jHa56k6UJ_NeNp2uhMtA$ >
>
>
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> *Matt Wait, MS, DABR, DABSNM, MRSE*
> Senior Diagnostic Physicist
> Associate Radiation Safety Officer
> Assistant Residency Director
> *Kaiser Permanente*
> *Southern Permanente Medical Group*
> Medical Imaging Technology and Informatics
> 4867 Sunset Blvd
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.google.com/maps/search/4867*Sunset*Blvd**A0D*0A**A0D*0A*Los*Angeles,*CA*90027**A0D*0A**A0D*0A*x5347*(office?entry=gmail&source=g__;KysrJSUrJSUrKysrKyUlKyUlKys!!KGKeukY!x0papCM_iTVWnSTQkMc_SHwci_FgU-ejRnjPVU_cgUbJqe-P2hx_f5xsdNZb_QTzWtxmZZ6JO-vfe_fkP6jHa56k6UJ_NeNp2uhMtA$ >
> Los Angeles, CA 90027
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> )
> (818) 232-2427 (mobile phone)
>
>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* Douglas Pfeiffer <xraydoug at me.com>
> *Sent:* Monday, September 14, 2026 1:35 PM
> *To:* Matt Wait <Matt.Wait at kp.org>
> *Cc:* DxMedPhys List <intl_dxmedphys_wd_osu_list at lists.osu.edu>; Bob
> Kobistek <bob at rjkmedphys.com>
> *Subject:* Re: [Intl_DxMedPhys] ACR CT test question
>
> Going through the list of scanned patients on the scanner and looking for
> abdomens that look about the right size, and looking at the mA at mid-liver
> (belly button-ish).
>
> Best regards,
> Doug
>
>
>
> Douglas Pfeiffer, MS, DABR FACR, FAAPM (he/him)
> Medical Physicist, Radiation Safety Officer
> Boulder Community Health
> xraydoug at me.com
> 303.415.7515 <(303)%20415-7515>
>
> +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-
>
> The opinions expressed in this message are the product of the gray and
> white matter loitering in my cranium. I speak for myself and no one else,
> unless I say otherwise.
>
> On Sep 14, 2026, at 2:16 PM, Matt Wait <Matt.Wait at kp.org> wrote:
>
> Doug, how did you envision determining the automatic tube current
> selection for Standard Man?
>
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.google.com/maps/search/4867*Sunset*Blvd**A0D*0A**A0D*0A*Los*Angeles,*CA*90027**A0D*0A**A0D*0A*x5347*(office?entry=gmail&source=g__;KysrJSUrJSUrKysrKyUlKyUlKys!!KGKeukY!x0papCM_iTVWnSTQkMc_SHwci_FgU-ejRnjPVU_cgUbJqe-P2hx_f5xsdNZb_QTzWtxmZZ6JO-vfe_fkP6jHa56k6UJ_NeNp2uhMtA$ >
>
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>
>
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.google.com/maps/search/4867*Sunset*Blvd**A0D*0A**A0D*0A*Los*Angeles,*CA*90027**A0D*0A**A0D*0A*x5347*(office?entry=gmail&source=g__;KysrJSUrJSUrKysrKyUlKyUlKys!!KGKeukY!x0papCM_iTVWnSTQkMc_SHwci_FgU-ejRnjPVU_cgUbJqe-P2hx_f5xsdNZb_QTzWtxmZZ6JO-vfe_fkP6jHa56k6UJ_NeNp2uhMtA$ >
>
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> *Matt Wait, MS, DABR, DABSNM, MRSE*
> Senior Diagnostic Physicist
> Associate Radiation Safety Officer
> Assistant Residency Director
> *Kaiser Permanente*
> *Southern Permanente Medical Group*
> Medical Imaging Technology and Informatics
> 4867 Sunset Blvd
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.google.com/maps/search/4867*Sunset*Blvd**A0D*0A**A0D*0A*Los*Angeles,*CA*90027**A0D*0A**A0D*0A*x5347*(office?entry=gmail&source=g__;KysrJSUrJSUrKysrKyUlKyUlKys!!KGKeukY!x0papCM_iTVWnSTQkMc_SHwci_FgU-ejRnjPVU_cgUbJqe-P2hx_f5xsdNZb_QTzWtxmZZ6JO-vfe_fkP6jHa56k6UJ_NeNp2uhMtA$ >
> Los Angeles, CA 90027
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.google.com/maps/search/4867*Sunset*Blvd**A0D*0A**A0D*0A*Los*Angeles,*CA*90027**A0D*0A**A0D*0A*x5347*(office?entry=gmail&source=g__;KysrJSUrJSUrKysrKyUlKyUlKys!!KGKeukY!x0papCM_iTVWnSTQkMc_SHwci_FgU-ejRnjPVU_cgUbJqe-P2hx_f5xsdNZb_QTzWtxmZZ6JO-vfe_fkP6jHa56k6UJ_NeNp2uhMtA$ >
> x5347 (office
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> )
> (818) 232-2427 (mobile phone)
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> *From:* Intl_dxmedphys_wd_osu_list <
> intl_dxmedphys_wd_osu_list-bounces+matt.wait=kp.org at lists.osu.edu> on
> behalf of Douglas Pfeiffer via Intl_dxmedphys_wd_osu_list <
> intl_dxmedphys_wd_osu_list at lists.osu.edu>
> *Sent:* Monday, September 14, 2026 1:12 PM
> *To:* Bob Kobistek <bob at rjkmedphys.com>
> *Cc:* DxMedPhys List <intl_dxmedphys_wd_osu_list at lists.osu.edu>
> *Subject:* Re: [Intl_DxMedPhys] ACR CT test question
>
> *Caution: *This email came from outside Kaiser Permanente. Do not open
> attachments or click on links if you do not recognize the sender.
> ------------------------------
> For what it’s worth now, the intent when I was working on the manual was
> Standard Man (i.e., 70 kg). It was an unfortunate oversight on my part that
> I did not catch that and state it explicitly way back when. I’m not sure
> what is assumed now by the ACR, but that was the original thinking.
>
> Best regards,
> Doug
>
>
>
> Douglas Pfeiffer, MS, DABR FACR, FAAPM (he/him)
> Medical Physicist, Radiation Safety Officer
> Boulder Community Health
> xraydoug at me.com
> 303.415.7515 <(303)%20415-7515>
>
> +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-
>
> The opinions expressed in this message are the product of the gray and
> white matter loitering in my cranium. I speak for myself and no one else,
> unless I say otherwise.
>
> On Sep 9, 2026, at 1:45 PM, Bob Kobistek via Intl_dxmedphys_wd_osu_list <
> intl_dxmedphys_wd_osu_list at lists.osu.edu> wrote:
>
> Hi.
>
> I also beat my head against a wall searching for answers to these
> questions when the ACR CT accreditation program was started. I stopped
> overthinking it, and now I pretty much wing it.
>
> For average size patient, I look through patient scans to find one with an
> A-P dimension through the abdomen of around 23 cm. If I can find more than
> one (hard to find nowadays), I’ll toss out the outliers and take an average
> of the mAs values.
>
> For new scanners I use nearly all the options you presented. If it’s a
> scanner with a similar model in use at the facility, I refer to patients
> scanned on the existing scanners. If it’s a scanner that I see at other
> facilities, I’ll make adjustments for differences in protocols and use
> that. If it’s a scanner I’ve never seen before, I’ll pull up the
> manufacturer’s suggested protocols and take a guess at the mAs when TCM is
> used. If I use the second or third option, I’ll take a look at patient
> scans once the scanner has been operating for a few weeks. If I can make
> adjustments to my measurements based on the clinical data, I will. If I
> have to, I’ll repeat the measurements using the clinical protocols. If the
> site is going to be ACR accredited I will always make a second trip so I
> can use the actual protocols and clinical mAs values for accreditation, not
> matter which of the three options above that I use.
>
> There is very little guidance on how to chose mAs (and kVp when
> applicable) for automated technique selection. So we use out best judgment.
>
>
> Robert J. Kobistek, MS, FACR, DABR, MRSE(MRSC™)
> Medical Physicist
> RJK Medical Physics, Inc.
> 440-463-7879 <(440)%20463-7879>
>
> *From:* Intl_dxmedphys_wd_osu_list <
> intl_dxmedphys_wd_osu_list-bounces at lists.osu.edu> *On Behalf Of *David S.
> Winter via Intl_dxmedphys_wd_osu_list
> *Sent:* Monday, September 7, 2026 4:02 PM
> *To:* DxMedPhys List <intl_dxmedphys_wd_osu_list at lists.osu.edu>
> *Subject:* [Intl_DxMedPhys] ACR CT test question
>
> All, I apologize as this has no doubt been discussed in the past, but I
> have a two part inquiry related to ACR CT testing. I am happy to clarify
> directly with the ACR, but I figured I would touch base with this forum
> first. (Especially since
> All,
>
> I apologize as this has no doubt been discussed in the past, but I have a
> two part inquiry related to ACR CT testing. I am happy to clarify directly
> with the ACR, but I figured I would touch base with this forum first.
> (Especially since only part 1 would be good to ask the ACR directly.)
>
> Part 1: The ACR’s scanning instructions webpage and the CT QC manual both
> give a weight range for the pediatric abdominal exam of 40-50lbs, but only
> the QC manual has a weight for the adult abdomen (i.e. 70 kg, ~154 lbs).
> The webpage merely says “average sized patient”. The exclusion of the 70 kg
> reference could be an accidental omission, but that requires the same
> omission to have been repeated in multiple different locations on their
> webpage.
>
> “Average sized” could be interpreted to mean average across the entire US
> population, the region a CT scanner is in, or the specific patient
> population a specific CT scanner sees (which could be massively different
> if the scanner is the go-to scanner for bariatric patients.) The CDC says
> the current adult average weights are 199 lbs for men and 171.8 lbs for
> women. (Both significantly more than 154). In addition, the ACR’s mandatory
> dose calculation sheet calculates the adult abdomen SSDE for a 35 cm water
> equivalent diameter. While you can’t exactly convert abdominal water
> equivalent diameter to a patient weight, that value would likely correspond
> to a patient significantly heavier than 154 lbs.
>
> Has anyone specifically seen anything that dictates which is definitively
> correct for determining what techniques to set, and by extension, determine
> whether or not the scanner is really passing the CNR test?
>
> Part 2: In practice, I am curious how people are determining the mA that
> CT scanners are selecting for the “average”, particularly for brand new
> scanners without much/any historic patient data. I can imagine four
> different general approaches. 1) Analysis of historical data aggregated by
> a dose metric monitoring system like Radimetrics. 2) Manually looking for a
> few historical patients that look to be roughly “average size” and then
> averaging the mA from a representative slice from a few of those studies.
> 3) For new systems, using values from a similar system with similar
> settings. 4) Conducting scans of a standard (e.g. their CTDI phantom),
> seeing what the CT scanner picks for mA, and then applying a scaling factor
> to that mA to adjust for the size difference.
>
> Sincerely,
> Scott
>
> *D. SCOTT WINTER*
> **********
> *CHIEF DIAGNOSTIC MEDICAL PHYSICIST*
> O:
> 228-865-3475
>
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>
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>
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.google.com/maps/search/4500*13th*St**A0D*0A**A0D*0A**A0D*0A*,**A0D*0A**A0D*0A**A0D*0A*Gulfport**A0D*0A**A0D*0A**A0D*0A*,**A0D*0A**A0D*0A**A0D*0A*MS**A0D*0A**A0D*0A**A0D*0A*,**A0D*0A**A0D*0A**A0D*0A*39501?entry=gmail&source=g__;KysrJSUrJSUrJSUrKyUlKyUlKyUlKyslJSslJSslJSsrJSUrJSUrJSUrKyUlKyUlKyUlKyslJSslJSslJSs!!KGKeukY!x0papCM_iTVWnSTQkMc_SHwci_FgU-ejRnjPVU_cgUbJqe-P2hx_f5xsdNZb_QTzWtxmZZ6JO-vfe_fkP6jHa56k6UJ_NeNUWk_9Hg$ >
> 4500
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.google.com/maps/search/4500*13th*St**A0D*0A**A0D*0A**A0D*0A*,**A0D*0A**A0D*0A**A0D*0A*Gulfport**A0D*0A**A0D*0A**A0D*0A*,**A0D*0A**A0D*0A**A0D*0A*MS**A0D*0A**A0D*0A**A0D*0A*,**A0D*0A**A0D*0A**A0D*0A*39501?entry=gmail&source=g__;KysrJSUrJSUrJSUrKyUlKyUlKyUlKyslJSslJSslJSsrJSUrJSUrJSUrKyUlKyUlKyUlKyslJSslJSslJSs!!KGKeukY!x0papCM_iTVWnSTQkMc_SHwci_FgU-ejRnjPVU_cgUbJqe-P2hx_f5xsdNZb_QTzWtxmZZ6JO-vfe_fkP6jHa56k6UJ_NeNUWk_9Hg$ >
> 13th
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.google.com/maps/search/4500*13th*St**A0D*0A**A0D*0A**A0D*0A*,**A0D*0A**A0D*0A**A0D*0A*Gulfport**A0D*0A**A0D*0A**A0D*0A*,**A0D*0A**A0D*0A**A0D*0A*MS**A0D*0A**A0D*0A**A0D*0A*,**A0D*0A**A0D*0A**A0D*0A*39501?entry=gmail&source=g__;KysrJSUrJSUrJSUrKyUlKyUlKyUlKyslJSslJSslJSsrJSUrJSUrJSUrKyUlKyUlKyUlKyslJSslJSslJSs!!KGKeukY!x0papCM_iTVWnSTQkMc_SHwci_FgU-ejRnjPVU_cgUbJqe-P2hx_f5xsdNZb_QTzWtxmZZ6JO-vfe_fkP6jHa56k6UJ_NeNUWk_9Hg$ >
> St
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>
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> ,
>
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.google.com/maps/search/4500*13th*St**A0D*0A**A0D*0A**A0D*0A*,**A0D*0A**A0D*0A**A0D*0A*Gulfport**A0D*0A**A0D*0A**A0D*0A*,**A0D*0A**A0D*0A**A0D*0A*MS**A0D*0A**A0D*0A**A0D*0A*,**A0D*0A**A0D*0A**A0D*0A*39501?entry=gmail&source=g__;KysrJSUrJSUrJSUrKyUlKyUlKyUlKyslJSslJSslJSsrJSUrJSUrJSUrKyUlKyUlKyUlKyslJSslJSslJSs!!KGKeukY!x0papCM_iTVWnSTQkMc_SHwci_FgU-ejRnjPVU_cgUbJqe-P2hx_f5xsdNZb_QTzWtxmZZ6JO-vfe_fkP6jHa56k6UJ_NeNUWk_9Hg$ >
> Gulfport
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.google.com/maps/search/4500*13th*St**A0D*0A**A0D*0A**A0D*0A*,**A0D*0A**A0D*0A**A0D*0A*Gulfport**A0D*0A**A0D*0A**A0D*0A*,**A0D*0A**A0D*0A**A0D*0A*MS**A0D*0A**A0D*0A**A0D*0A*,**A0D*0A**A0D*0A**A0D*0A*39501?entry=gmail&source=g__;KysrJSUrJSUrJSUrKyUlKyUlKyUlKyslJSslJSslJSsrJSUrJSUrJSUrKyUlKyUlKyUlKyslJSslJSslJSs!!KGKeukY!x0papCM_iTVWnSTQkMc_SHwci_FgU-ejRnjPVU_cgUbJqe-P2hx_f5xsdNZb_QTzWtxmZZ6JO-vfe_fkP6jHa56k6UJ_NeNUWk_9Hg$ >
> ,
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.google.com/maps/search/4500*13th*St**A0D*0A**A0D*0A**A0D*0A*,**A0D*0A**A0D*0A**A0D*0A*Gulfport**A0D*0A**A0D*0A**A0D*0A*,**A0D*0A**A0D*0A**A0D*0A*MS**A0D*0A**A0D*0A**A0D*0A*,**A0D*0A**A0D*0A**A0D*0A*39501?entry=gmail&source=g__;KysrJSUrJSUrJSUrKyUlKyUlKyUlKyslJSslJSslJSsrJSUrJSUrJSUrKyUlKyUlKyUlKyslJSslJSslJSs!!KGKeukY!x0papCM_iTVWnSTQkMc_SHwci_FgU-ejRnjPVU_cgUbJqe-P2hx_f5xsdNZb_QTzWtxmZZ6JO-vfe_fkP6jHa56k6UJ_NeNUWk_9Hg$ >
>
> MS
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> ,
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>
> 39501
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.google.com/maps/search/4500*13th*St**A0D*0A**A0D*0A**A0D*0A*,**A0D*0A**A0D*0A**A0D*0A*Gulfport**A0D*0A**A0D*0A**A0D*0A*,**A0D*0A**A0D*0A**A0D*0A*MS**A0D*0A**A0D*0A**A0D*0A*,**A0D*0A**A0D*0A**A0D*0A*39501?entry=gmail&source=g__;KysrJSUrJSUrJSUrKyUlKyUlKyUlKyslJSslJSslJSsrJSUrJSUrJSUrKyUlKyUlKyUlKyslJSslJSslJSs!!KGKeukY!x0papCM_iTVWnSTQkMc_SHwci_FgU-ejRnjPVU_cgUbJqe-P2hx_f5xsdNZb_QTzWtxmZZ6JO-vfe_fkP6jHa56k6UJ_NeNUWk_9Hg$ >
> <image001.gif>
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> *WeAreMemorial.com*
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