[Intl_DxMedPhys] The end of LNT and ALARA?

[Matt Wait]

“the NRC shall specifically consider adopting determinate radiation limits”

But we do have determinate limits. There are well-defined deterministic thresholds for deterministic effects. You cannot set a “deterministic limit” on developing cancer, even if the risk is very low. See: smoking. I don’t know how this is workable by the NRC, or what the potential fallout effects are.

For example, let’s say the NRC declares somehow that 100 mSv is a dose “limit”, below which there are “no” harms from radiation. Does that effectively mean the end of diagnostic medical physics?

Matt Wait, MS, DABR, DABSNM, MRSE
Senior Diagnostic Physicist
Assistant Radiation Safety Officer
Assistant Residency Director
Kaiser Permanente
Southern Permanente Medical Group
Medical Imaging Technology and Informatics
4867 Sunset Blvd
Los Angeles, CA 90027
x5347 (office)
(818) 232-2427 (mobile phone)

From: Intl_dxmedphys_wd_osu_list <intl_dxmedphys_wd_osu_list-bounces at lists.osu.edu> On Behalf Of Robert Morrison via Intl_dxmedphys_wd_osu_list
Sent: Saturday, May 24, 2025 11:50 AM
To: intl_dxmedphys_wd_osu_list at lists.osu.edu
Subject: Re: [Intl_DxMedPhys] The end of LNT and ALARA?

>From Trump's Executive order that Maryellen posted https: //www. whitehouse. gov/presidential-actions/2025/05/ordering-the-reform-of-the-nuclear-regulatory-commission/ Ordering the Reform of the Nuclear Regulatory Commission By the authority vested

Caution: This email came from outside Kaiser Permanente. Do not open attachments or click on links if you do not recognize the sender.

________________________________
>From Trump's Executive order that Maryellen posted https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.whitehouse.gov/presidential-actions/2025/05/ordering-the-reform-of-the-nuclear-regulatory-commission/__;!!KGKeukY!2gV2zXqrbH6eQoq1GvRl6v-oR1HA0o53Xhonk6YGGfhfQGhGmb1SPNB1U4l7K9AL8EOb4s3lK9VMhRlrU6i7iTaVZCfAAm4bXoLcv58$ <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.whitehouse.gov/presidential-actions/2025/05/ordering-the-reform-of-the-nuclear-regulatory-commission/__;!!KGKeukY!zSb3Ge7odKT_p8NuwTxaULZ_XLyrLye9SfsNMn-DjF0YDVD5hD21mEgGC0YZ5E4apekz17j58Zl4hU6WptbQlXY-3Hfs70ndORHZt477JCw_$>
[https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.whitehouse.gov/wp-content/uploads/2025/03/WH47-Presidential-Actions-Social-Share-Card.jpg__;!!KGKeukY!2gV2zXqrbH6eQoq1GvRl6v-oR1HA0o53Xhonk6YGGfhfQGhGmb1SPNB1U4l7K9AL8EOb4s3lK9VMhRlrU6i7iTaVZCfAAm4bOLJ0vqA$ ]<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.whitehouse.gov/presidential-actions/2025/05/ordering-the-reform-of-the-nuclear-regulatory-commission/__;!!KGKeukY!zSb3Ge7odKT_p8NuwTxaULZ_XLyrLye9SfsNMn-DjF0YDVD5hD21mEgGC0YZ5E4apekz17j58Zl4hU6WptbQlXY-3Hfs70ndORHZt477JCw_$>
Ordering the Reform of the Nuclear Regulatory Commission<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.whitehouse.gov/presidential-actions/2025/05/ordering-the-reform-of-the-nuclear-regulatory-commission/__;!!KGKeukY!zSb3Ge7odKT_p8NuwTxaULZ_XLyrLye9SfsNMn-DjF0YDVD5hD21mEgGC0YZ5E4apekz17j58Zl4hU6WptbQlXY-3Hfs70ndORHZt477JCw_$>
By the authority vested in me as President by the Constitution and the laws of the United States of America, it is hereby ordered:Section 1. Purpose.
https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.whitehouse.gov__;!!KGKeukY!2gV2zXqrbH6eQoq1GvRl6v-oR1HA0o53Xhonk6YGGfhfQGhGmb1SPNB1U4l7K9AL8EOb4s3lK9VMhRlrU6i7iTaVZCfAAm4bY8k9JSY$ <https://urldefense.com/v3/__http:/www.whitehouse.gov__;!!KGKeukY!zSb3Ge7odKT_p8NuwTxaULZ_XLyrLye9SfsNMn-DjF0YDVD5hD21mEgGC0YZ5E4apekz17j58Zl4hU6WptbQlXY-3Hfs70ndORHZt82lH2Z9$>
The words in article 5b state the following:

"(b)  Adopt science-based radiation limits.  In particular, the NRC shall reconsider reliance on the linear no-threshold (LNT) model for radiation exposure and the “as low as reasonably achievable” standard, which is predicated on LNT.  Those models are flawed, as discussed in section 1 of this order.  In reconsidering those limits, the NRC shall specifically consider adopting determinate radiation limits, and in doing so shall consult with the Department of Defense (DOD), the Department of Energy (DOE), and the Environmental Protection Agency."

So if I read the bit in article 1 that article 5 b refers to, and it says the following:

"This failure stems from a fundamental error:  Instead of efficiently promoting safe, abundant nuclear energy, the NRC has instead tried to insulate Americans from the most remote risks without appropriate regard for the severe domestic and geopolitical costs of such risk aversion.  The NRC utilizes safety models that posit there is no safe threshold of radiation exposure and that harm is directly proportional to the amount of exposure.  Those models lack sound scientific basis and produce irrational results, such as requiring that nuclear plants protect against radiation below naturally occurring levels.  A myopic policy of minimizing even trivial risks ignores the reality that substitute forms of energy production also carry risk, such as pollution with potentially deleterious health effects.
Recent events in Europe, such as the nationwide blackouts in Spain and Portugal, underscore the importance of my Administration’s focus on dispatchable power generation –including nuclear power — over intermittent power.  Beginning today, my Administration will reform the NRC, including its structure, personnel, regulations, and basic operations.  In so doing, we will produce lasting American dominance in the global nuclear energy market, create tens of thousands of high-paying jobs, and generate American-led prosperity and resilience."

If I read what this lawyer has written in his Substack in the link below about what Trump is trying to achieve, then the above makes sense, why he is doing what he is doing.  Of course, who makes the rules for a new model and truly proves that the existing model is wrong? And who does the interpretation and the application of the model.   Does relying on the people (scientists/physicists if that is who will be consulted with in these alphabet soup government departments) in the DOD, DOE and EPA have the right people to determine the science of what we should adopt for rules and limits on radiation exposure and how they apply?  Is this all about the public and their exposure limit or does this also apply to all the medical diagnostic and therapeutic procedures?

In discussing radiation exposure to the public and its limits with two German PhD medical physicist's this week I learned that it sounds to be much stricter in the EU, specifically Germany, than it is here in the US.  And of course, they both had their own personal opinions like we all do.  One has lived in the US and practiced medical physics here for over 30 years and the other resides in Europe and is much younger with both being very knowledgeable and bright with both of them having many published papers under their belts.

I am sure Tom Petrone's words will become prophetical with this topic!

"I can’t wait to witness the discussion around this one."

I too am not looking to make this political.  Although our politics and opinions can weigh upon our views and what we believe and what we do.  We live in some interesting times as so many have throughout history.

Also, in my discussion with the two German physicists I was asking about the radiation exposure we get while flying at 35k'.  One thing I learned was that one airline actually has determined the routes they fly and the amount of exposure to their staff while flying those routes and limits the routes that they can fly due to the exposure.  And this was a German airline.  I do not know if all airlines do this or not.  And then the discussions around Chernobyl disaster and of course Japan etc. and the exposure to people and the effects.  I guess the saying everything in moderation could be applicable.

Again, who makes the rules and what are the facts, not theories, not people's political or personal views that will come into play in determining if the existing rules are best or making new rules and guidelines that are better.  History is filled with these topics. We have a depraved nature and some, depending on how fee they are to run with it, can really crave power through topics like this.  We have all witnessed things like what our government put in place with the food pyramid and how that has now come crashing down.  Also, we all have our pet topics and concerns.  Those are the things that make us who we are.  Is this the biggest and most important issue in our lives and our lifetime?

Sincerely,
Rob Morrison

P.S.  Maybe some group of even someone should make a forum for medical physicists like there are for so many other topics where there could be specific threads for these particular topics along with all the other topics on the practical aspects of doing the actual physics and how to measure on specific new units and dealing with ACR measurements etc...  I know that having and email come into your inbox on specific topics can be very helpful but the topics on it may be annoying. I know there is a medical physics group on Reddit and I get that feed but that stems more around therapy physics.  Having an actual Medical Physicist forum encompassing the whole realm of medical physics in the radiation measurement application of medicine would be something I think would be helpful.  But of course that is my opinion.

https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.coffeeandcovid.com/p/you-know-the-thing-saturday-may-24?utm_source=post-email-title&publication_id=463409&post_id=164304091&utm_campaign=email-post-title&isFreemail=true&r=1f1al0&triedRedirect=true&utm_medium=email__;!!KGKeukY!2gV2zXqrbH6eQoq1GvRl6v-oR1HA0o53Xhonk6YGGfhfQGhGmb1SPNB1U4l7K9AL8EOb4s3lK9VMhRlrU6i7iTaVZCfAAm4bv4fN_Xc$ <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.coffeeandcovid.com/p/you-know-the-thing-saturday-may-24?utm_source=post-email-title&publication_id=463409&post_id=164304091&utm_campaign=email-post-title&isFreemail=true&r=1f1al0&triedRedirect=true&utm_medium=email__;!!KGKeukY!zSb3Ge7odKT_p8NuwTxaULZ_XLyrLye9SfsNMn-DjF0YDVD5hD21mEgGC0YZ5E4apekz17j58Zl4hU6WptbQlXY-3Hfs70ndORHZt3JJgkBk$>
[https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/w_1200,h_600,c_fill,f_jpg,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep,g_auto/https*3A*2F*2Fsubstack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com*2Fpublic*2Fimages*2Fc5356c36-b577-4d43-9e2d-83e876af3dbb_1337x405.png__;JSUlJSUl!!KGKeukY!2gV2zXqrbH6eQoq1GvRl6v-oR1HA0o53Xhonk6YGGfhfQGhGmb1SPNB1U4l7K9AL8EOb4s3lK9VMhRlrU6i7iTaVZCfAAm4by3hxHME$ ]<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.coffeeandcovid.com/p/you-know-the-thing-saturday-may-24?utm_source=post-email-title&publication_id=463409&post_id=164304091&utm_campaign=email-post-title&isFreemail=true&r=1f1al0&triedRedirect=true&utm_medium=email__;!!KGKeukY!zSb3Ge7odKT_p8NuwTxaULZ_XLyrLye9SfsNMn-DjF0YDVD5hD21mEgGC0YZ5E4apekz17j58Zl4hU6WptbQlXY-3Hfs70ndORHZt3JJgkBk$>
☕️ YOU KNOW, THE THING ☙ Saturday, May 24, 2025 ☙ C&C NEWS 🦠<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.coffeeandcovid.com/p/you-know-the-thing-saturday-may-24?utm_source=post-email-title&publication_id=463409&post_id=164304091&utm_campaign=email-post-title&isFreemail=true&r=1f1al0&triedRedirect=true&utm_medium=email__;!!KGKeukY!zSb3Ge7odKT_p8NuwTxaULZ_XLyrLye9SfsNMn-DjF0YDVD5hD21mEgGC0YZ5E4apekz17j58Zl4hU6WptbQlXY-3Hfs70ndORHZt3JJgkBk$>
Trump powers up a historic new Manhattan Project; EPA flips green script; tariffs slam Europe; DOGE launches historic voter integrity DB; House probes Biden’s brain—first time in U.S. history.
https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.coffeeandcovid.com__;!!KGKeukY!2gV2zXqrbH6eQoq1GvRl6v-oR1HA0o53Xhonk6YGGfhfQGhGmb1SPNB1U4l7K9AL8EOb4s3lK9VMhRlrU6i7iTaVZCfAAm4bAuWgK7k$ <https://urldefense.com/v3/__http:/www.coffeeandcovid.com__;!!KGKeukY!zSb3Ge7odKT_p8NuwTxaULZ_XLyrLye9SfsNMn-DjF0YDVD5hD21mEgGC0YZ5E4apekz17j58Zl4hU6WptbQlXY-3Hfs70ndORHZt76WjXZl$>

NOTICE TO RECIPIENT:  If you are not the intended recipient of this e-mail, you are prohibited from sharing, copying, or otherwise using or disclosing its contents.  If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately by reply e-mail and permanently delete this e-mail and any attachments without reading, forwarding or saving them. v.173.295  Thank you.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <https://lists.osu.edu/mailman/private/intl_dxmedphys_wd_osu_list/attachments/20250527/797353e5/attachment.html>