[Heb-NACO] קלוקלים

Wed Feb 9 07:34:48 EST 2022

For the record, I only said it was deramati as a joke, not implying it is the same rule

From: Heb-naco <heb-naco-bounces+nfraucortes=broward.org at lists.osu.edu> On Behalf Of Shinohara, Jasmin via Heb-naco
Sent: Tuesday, February 8, 2022 2:37 PM
To: Galron, Joseph <galron.1 at osu.edu>; Hebrew Name Authority Funnel <heb-naco at lists.osu.edu>
Subject: Re: [Heb-NACO] קלוקלים

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The email chain below has combined different issues.

דרמתי, as Yossi wrote, is of Greek/Latin origin and is romanized following HCM-RDA instructions on foreign loan words, p.17: “In the case of foreign loan words of Latin or Greek origin, Alcalay should not be followed, and an initial consonantal cluster is treated as a sheṿa naḥ.”

קלוקלים is a Hebrew word and is romanized following HCM-RDA instructions on sheṿa, pp. 15-17, copied here:

The transcription of the sheṿa is problematic. The ALA-LC Romanization system attempts to approximate standard Israeli pronunciation throughout the romanization process while at the same time reflecting the general principles of traditional Hebrew grammar. Obviously, this is a difficult gap to bridge. Other considerations to keep in mind are the basic continuity of romanization practice in spite of profound cataloging changes over the years on the one hand, and the accessibility of one’s data on the other. Although there are only a few systems where capitalization practice or the presence or absence of a diacritic or special character will affect retrieval per se, the romanization or non-romanization of a vowel is quite another matter.

Alcalay is useful for the identification of sheṿa naḥ (quiescent) and sheṿa na‘ (mobile) in that he usually does not transcribe the sheṿa naḥ in his vocalization scheme.

With regard to the romanization or non-romanization of the sheṿa na‘, there are several principles to be kept in mind.

All sheṿas in Hebrew initial syllables are sheṿa na‘ and are transcribed as "e" regardless of pronunciation.
teḳufah [not: tḳufah (era)]                           תקופה
teshuvah [not: tshuvah (response)]           תשובה

There are however, at least two categories of sheṿa na‘ in which the romanization system attempts to follow generally accepted pronunciation a little more closely. Both categories consist of cases of sheṿa na‘ which result from what some linguists call “vowel reduction.”

The first and most easily definable of these categories is the sheṿa occurring between the second and third consonants of the plural forms of benoni (participles, nouns, etc. having the same vowel pattern) and other verb forms of the pa‘al/ḳal, pi‘el, and hitpa‘el binyanim (stems), including all sheṿas following consonants with dagesh ḥazaḳ. Exceptions apply if the lamed ha-po’al (third consonant of the root) is the same as the second (‘ayin ha-po‘al), or if the second consonant is a yod (‘ayin-yod pattern).

lomdim [not: lomedim]                 לומדים
lomdot [not: lomedot]                   לומדות
from: lomed                                     לומד

rof’im [not: rofe’im]                       רופאים
rof’ot [not: rofe’ot]                        רופאות
from: rofe                                         רופאים

munḥe [not: muneḥe]                    מונחי
from: munaḥim                                מונחים

tedabru [not: tedaberu]                תדברו
tedabri [not: tedaberi]                   תדברי
from: tedaber                                   תדבר

mitsṭarfim [not: mitsṭarefim]       מצטרפים
mitsṭarfot [not: mitsṭarefot]        מצטרפות
from: mitsṭaref                                מצטרף
…

(highlights added for emphasis/easy browsing)

קלוקל falls into the above category. Hence, ḳeloḳlim, not: ḳeloḳelim or ḳloḳlim (from: ḳeloḳel).

Thanks, Jasmin

From: Heb-naco <heb-naco-bounces+jshino=pobox.upenn.edu at lists.osu.edu<mailto:heb-naco-bounces+jshino=pobox.upenn.edu at lists.osu.edu>> On Behalf Of Galron, Joseph via Heb-naco
Sent: Tuesday, February 8, 2022 1:41 PM
To: Hebrew Name Authority Funnel <heb-naco at lists.osu.edu<mailto:heb-naco at lists.osu.edu>>
Subject: Re: [Heb-NACO] קלוקלים

I agree with Barry – it should be Kelokelim and not Keloklim or Kloklim. It is a Hebrew word.

It is not the same as Dramati (that is a non-Hebrew word)

From: Heb-naco On Behalf Of Barry Dov Walfish via Heb-naco
Sent: Monday, February 07, 2022 11:48 PM
To: Shinohara, Jasmin <jshino at pobox.upenn.edu<mailto:jshino at pobox.upenn.edu>>; Hebrew Name Authority Funnel <heb-naco at lists.osu.edu<mailto:heb-naco at lists.osu.edu>>
Subject: Re: [Heb-NACO] קלוקלים

Hi, Jasmin,

The rule seems to be that if in the singular base word the letter in question has a vowel underneath it, then, in the plural
the sheva is a sheva na. So, since the sing. is kelokel, with tsere under the kof, then the plural should be kelokelim.
See:
https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://hebrew-academy.org.il/2013/09/01/**I-**G-**K/__;16LXmden16jXmdeq15XXqNeq15TXoNeZ16fXldeT!!KGKeukY!lkoVYIjO7SveDleEcG0MJYGRvMH0E-cG2gU3GL-4n4Pd5iOaKzfk9TK_bMzHup41d7iP$ <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/hebrew-academy.org.il/2013/09/01/**I-**G-**K/__;16LXmden16jXmdeq15XXqNeq15TXoNeZ16fXldeT!!KGKeukY!kfyp455q_TPBY6DDi9TdY5pTxdZfi2EiioJlp5K5FC7qtCWMurG2Lb2MsMFy_NzmQJio$>
Hope this helps,
Best,
Barry

On Mon, Feb 7, 2022 at 11:29 PM Shinohara, Jasmin via Heb-naco <heb-naco at lists.osu.edu<mailto:heb-naco at lists.osu.edu>> wrote:
Hi, all,

The above is found in a couple titles by Toviyah Rubner (and is cited from him in the E.-Sh. entry for word). It has historically been romanized as ḳeloḳelim. My question is, why is the sheva under the second kof romanized as though it were a vocalized sheva? As a sheva merahef, wouldn’t it be ignored and the word romanized ḳeloḳlim?

Looking forward to your input.

Thanks, Jasmin

---
Jasmin Shinohara
Hebraica Cataloging Librarian
University of Pennsylvania
131 Van Pelt-Dietrich Library Center
3420 Walnut Street
Philadelphia, PA 19104-6206
T. 215-746-6397
jshino at upenn.edu<mailto:jshino at upenn.edu>
Coordinator, Hebraica BIBCO, NACO, & SACO Funnels

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