[Heb-NACO] [EXT] - Re: 046 Hebrew date coding in NARs

Mon Apr 26 19:05:32 EDT 2021

I doubt Paul Frank reads Heb-NACO. I am working on a draft with your responses and counter-arguments.

Thanks, Jasmin

From: Marlene Schiffman <schiffma at yu.edu>
Sent: Monday, April 26, 2021 7:05 PM
To: rtalbott at library.berkeley.edu; Shinohara, Jasmin <jshino at pobox.upenn.edu>
Cc: Hebrew Name Authority Funnel <heb-naco at lists.osu.edu>; Galron, Joseph <galron.1 at osu.edu>
Subject: RE: [EXT] - Re: [Heb-NACO] 046 Hebrew date coding in NARs

Maybe we should send this correspondence to Paul Frank? Does he read Heb-NACO?

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From: Robert M. TALBOTT<mailto:rtalbott at library.berkeley.edu>
Sent: Friday, April 23, 2021 8:39 PM
To: Shinohara, Jasmin<mailto:jshino at pobox.upenn.edu>
Cc: Hebrew Name Authority Funnel<mailto:heb-naco at lists.osu.edu>; Galron, Joseph<mailto:galron.1 at osu.edu>; Marlene Schiffman<mailto:schiffma at yu.edu>
Subject: [EXT] - Re: [Heb-NACO] 046 Hebrew date coding in NARs

**External Email**
I was under the impression that rules didn't go into effect until published.

On Fri, Apr 23, 2021 at 11:58 AM Shinohara, Jasmin <jshino at pobox.upenn.edu<mailto:jshino at pobox.upenn.edu>> wrote:
Dear colleagues, I regret that the guidance coming from LC/PCC is not more popular among you. Nevertheless, our NACO work is bound by LC/PCC policy. As such, henceforth, please code Hebrew dates that are not substantiated by Gregorian dates as uncertain in NACO records.

Thanks and kol tuv, Jasmin

From: Heb-naco <heb-naco-bounces at lists.osu.edu<mailto:heb-naco-bounces at lists.osu.edu>> On Behalf Of Robert M. TALBOTT via Heb-naco
Sent: Friday, April 23, 2021 9:34 AM
To: Galron, Joseph <galron.1 at osu.edu<mailto:galron.1 at osu.edu>>; Hebrew Name Authority Funnel <heb-naco at lists.osu.edu<mailto:heb-naco at lists.osu.edu>>
Subject: Re: [Heb-NACO] 046 Hebrew date coding in NARs

I agree with Yosi. There's no real benefit in ramping up the complexity of the 046 to cover the possibility that someone was born before sunset.

Bob

On Thu, Apr 22, 2021 at 8:50 PM Galron, Joseph via Heb-naco <heb-naco at lists.osu.edu<mailto:heb-naco at lists.osu.edu>> wrote:
I encountered this issue for my Lexicon as well for entering dates in Wikidata (and encyclopedic entries in the Hebrew Wikipedia).
My opinion is that we should put the later date and only in cases we know the two dates then to prefer the Hebrew date. Our life is complicated enough. We have a tool to convert Hebrew calendar to the Gregorian calendar and vis-a-versa https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.hebcal.com/converter__;!!KGKeukY!hx0QYJPGVeB1Jg3zYS6GBwNaCTscsu0IKhBpyWQYCPOEysnigfp0knYfauNJso9Gj7eh$ <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https*3A*2F*2Furldefense.com*2Fv3*2F__https*3A*2Fwww.hebcal.com*2Fconverter__*3B!!KGKeukY!g6jo72cqPGAkRZsVt0EeQnhrZu9zS3cFAFARzc0i99f1WheV_NlPXA9gGVhfQlTvnqs5*24&data=04*7C01*7Cschiffma*40yu.edu*7Caaf82c40e24340a3f72a08d906b96a34*7C04c70eb48f2648079934e02e89266ad0*7C1*7C1*7C637548215708512401*7CUnknown*7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0*3D*7C2000&sdata=ArxPCz5a8BQGxlZ5oP8wjeFkUSVuuA1mEqHnwaAlAf0*3D&reserved=0__;JSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSU!!KGKeukY!hx0QYJPGVeB1Jg3zYS6GBwNaCTscsu0IKhBpyWQYCPOEysnigfp0knYfauNJsuapEJ8N$ >
Is it really critical to know if someone was born in the evening before sunset or after sunset? (the only case for us will be if someone was born/died on December 31, 1969 or January 1, 1970 – this changes the heading in the 100 field).
I have so many stories I encountered while doing my biographical research for “my authors” where the Hebrew date is totally different then the Gregorian date on tombstones, in encyclopedias (Tidhar for example), Lexicons (Kressel and others). I saw letters by people who wrote that their Zeide told them they were born on Erev Shabbes of Hanukka, of תר"ע  1910 (Erev Shabbes of Hanukka was December 1909 and not 1910)
Remember – we have a backlog of Sforim we need to catalog – not too much time to spend on the issue if someone was born or died before or after sunset.

At this opportunity I invite you to view my working document in which I record the biographical information
https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1IPXgRBQE689SB8GpXKHjmSIlNP50n7hAJQEHaoVt8U4/edit?usp=sharing__;!!KGKeukY!hx0QYJPGVeB1Jg3zYS6GBwNaCTscsu0IKhBpyWQYCPOEysnigfp0knYfauNJss0d8qu2$ <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https*3A*2F*2Furldefense.com*2Fv3*2F__https*3A*2Fdocs.google.com*2Fspreadsheets*2Fd*2F1IPXgRBQE689SB8GpXKHjmSIlNP50n7hAJQEHaoVt8U4*2Fedit*3Fusp*3Dsharing__*3B!!KGKeukY!g6jo72cqPGAkRZsVt0EeQnhrZu9zS3cFAFARzc0i99f1WheV_NlPXA9gGVhfQiCVzkPV*24&data=04*7C01*7Cschiffma*40yu.edu*7Caaf82c40e24340a3f72a08d906b96a34*7C04c70eb48f2648079934e02e89266ad0*7C1*7C1*7C637548215708522358*7CUnknown*7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0*3D*7C2000&sdata=CIYG7sqk1GPBEjUFh2EvIP39UN*2Fh6By2Yyr8Zkrg0PE*3D&reserved=0__;JSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSU!!KGKeukY!hx0QYJPGVeB1Jg3zYS6GBwNaCTscsu0IKhBpyWQYCPOEysnigfp0knYfauNJsnXbyNRr$ >

My two Groschen to the issue

Yossi

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From: Heb-naco On Behalf Of Shinohara, Jasmin via Heb-naco
Sent: Thursday, April 22, 2021 5:32 PM
To: Hebrew Name Authority Funnel <heb-naco at lists.osu.edu<mailto:heb-naco at lists.osu.edu>>
Subject: [Heb-NACO] 046 Hebrew date coding in NARs

Hi, folks, I hope this email finds you all well.

I recently had the opportunity to get some guidance on how to code dates in the authority 046 when the date/s available is/are only using the Hebrew calendar. This was my question:

“Hebrew dates span two calendar days and, as such, two Gregorian dates. Till now, the majority of catalogers have made an assumption that the Hebrew date is the latter of the two Gregorian dates and only coded that date in the 046 (indicating certainty). The question is, is such practice ok/correct? Or should catalogers be erring on the side of caution and coding the 046 date as uncertain, e.g. [2012-07-31, 2012-08-01], unless a Gregorian date is also given to confirm the date? I don’t recall seeing any guidance on this subject. Can you please advise?”

This was the response from LC:

“What an interesting question about EDTF, especially since it was a topic here at LC a couple of weeks ago (not about Hebrew dates, but about what catalogers are supposed to do in the 046 field in general). I would err on the side of caution and give both dates in the 046 field when the Gregorian date is not known. Come to think of it, maybe I will add something about this to the DCM Z1 046 update that I am working on as a result of that meeting we had here a couple of weeks ago. That will document it.” (highlight added)

Please let me know if you have any questions.

Best wishes, Jasmin

---
Jasmin Shinohara
Hebraica Cataloging Librarian
University of Pennsylvania
551.1 Van Pelt-Dietrich Library Center
3420 Walnut Street
Philadelphia, PA 19104-6206
T. 215-746-6397
jshino at upenn.edu<mailto:jshino at upenn.edu>

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--
Bob Talbott

Hebraica cataloger/Curatorial Assistant to the Judaica Collection

UC Berkeley

250 Moffitt

Berkeley, CA 94720

Lue musaraba shu biburueada Bilgameshe nam habadabkure.

--
Bob Talbott

Hebraica cataloger/Curatorial Assistant to the Judaica Collection

UC Berkeley

250 Moffitt

Berkeley, CA 94720

Lue musaraba shu biburueada Bilgameshe nam habadabkure.

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