[Heb-NACO] בגלל

Thu Feb 7 17:42:06 EST 2019

Yes! Thank you, Shoshanah, that was helpful! I looked in the Heb-NACO archives and found a discussion from 2012 regarding li-fene<https://www.mail-archive.com/heb-naco@lists.service.ohio-state.edu/msg00256.html>. At the time, Joan weighed in with a citation of HCM, p. 21:
“’In the few cases where Even-Shoshan may show the same word under more than one entry element, the more 'analytical' option is chosen.’  There are definitions of "li-fene" under both lamed and peh, and therefore the standard romanization is "li-fene."”
However, looking at the current HCM-RDA, those instructions were not carried over. The question is, why not? And which (if any) of the 10 words below need to be switched back?

From: Heb-naco [mailto:heb-naco-bounces+jshino=pobox.upenn.edu at lists.osu.edu] On Behalf Of Rose Shoshanah Seidman via Heb-naco
Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2019 5:31 PM
To: Galron, Joseph; Hebrew Name Authority Funnel
Subject: Re: [Heb-NACO] בגלל

Hi hope Joan will pitch in.

I remember we had this same discussion we few years ago … bi-gelal …

Shoshanah

Shoshanah Seidman
Faculty Liaison, Program for Jewish Studies,
Northwestern University Library
847-467-2914

From: Heb-naco <heb-naco-bounces+sseidman=northwestern.edu at lists.osu.edu> On Behalf Of Galron, Joseph via Heb-naco
Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2019 4:26 PM
To: Hebrew Name Authority Funnel <heb-naco at lists.osu.edu>
Subject: Re: [Heb-NACO] בגלל

I checked  previous editions of ES and their also was a refrence to Gelal or Shevil
It is not a change from previous editions of the Dictionary.

I don’t agree that it is wrong.  I wouldn’t change it.

Yossi

From: Heb-naco <heb-naco-bounces at lists.osu.edu<mailto:heb-naco-bounces at lists.osu.edu>> On Behalf Of Robert M. TALBOTT via Heb-naco
Sent: Thursday, February 7, 2019 4:52 PM
To: Neil Manel Frau-Cortes <nfrau at umd.edu<mailto:nfrau at umd.edu>>; Hebrew Name Authority Funnel <heb-naco at lists.osu.edu<mailto:heb-naco at lists.osu.edu>>
Subject: Re: [Heb-NACO] בגלל

Folks:

I have to say that I'm in Yosi's camp. A vote for "bi-gelal" is a vote for sanity.

B

On Thu, Feb 7, 2019 at 1:23 PM Neil Manel Frau-Cortes via Heb-naco <heb-naco at lists.osu.edu<mailto:heb-naco at lists.osu.edu>> wrote:
I agree with Jasmin.

Neil

On Thu, Feb 7, 2019 at 4:20 PM Shinohara, Jasmin via Heb-naco <heb-naco at lists.osu.edu<mailto:heb-naco at lists.osu.edu>> wrote:
I hear the concern, Yossi, but I’m afraid we’ve already started down the proverbial slope. Per the FAQ<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__rascat.pbworks.com_w_page_109347700_Romanization-2520FAQ&d=DwMGaQ&c=yHlS04HhBraes5BQ9ueu5zKhE7rtNXt_d012z2PA6ws&r=16SoAV47CIfZoss58D_H0doRSteNqo65SPQan5BgSVs&m=0HNfKVPYLRCF5nEQFs2l5YkFSzKnz8XkNIfP5NXmsNo&s=GsCvrzP6URxKWSdcRsEhyfPLcXYuQXHFr6kkUP637-k&e=>, we’ve agreed to romanize the words as

Bediʻavad
Bahem
Bilvad
Kaʻet
Kefi
Levad
Lemaʻan
Lefi
Mimeni
Sheli

No one can argue for Shvil since the sheva na’ at the beginning of a word requires it to be Shevil. No one can argue for Birushalayim because there is no E-Sh. entry for the compound.

So do I hear consensus on Biglal (and Bishvil – when it means “because/on behalf of”; otherwise bi/ba-shevil when it means “on a/the path)?

From: Heb-naco [mailto:heb-naco-bounces at lists.osu.edu<mailto:heb-naco-bounces at lists.osu.edu>] On Behalf Of Galron, Joseph via Heb-naco
Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2019 12:52 PM
To: Hebrew Name Authority Funnel
Subject: Re: [Heb-NACO] בגלל

It is “dangerous” going to Biglal or Bishvil – tomorrow we will say: If it is Bishvil so why not change it to Shvil
We also Romanize בירושלים  to “Bi-Yerushalayim” and not to “Birushalayim”

Yossi

From: Heb-naco <heb-naco-bounces at lists.osu.edu<mailto:heb-naco-bounces at lists.osu.edu>> On Behalf Of Shinohara, Jasmin via Heb-naco
Sent: Thursday, February 7, 2019 12:31 PM
To: Gottschalk, Haim <hgot at loc.gov<mailto:hgot at loc.gov>>; 'Hebrew Name Authority Funnel' <heb-naco at lists.osu.edu<mailto:heb-naco at lists.osu.edu>>
Subject: Re: [Heb-NACO] בגלל

Hi, Haim, bi-gelal would be correct if the ב is considered a prefix to the word גלל. But since there is a direct entry for the word as a whole, I’m asking if we should romanize it as a whole word instead of as a compound word.

Thanks, Jasmin

From: Gottschalk, Haim [mailto:hgot at loc.gov]
Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2019 12:24 PM
To: Shinohara, Jasmin; 'Hebrew Name Authority Funnel'
Subject: RE: בגלל

I think it should be “biglal” and not “bi-gelal” because of the sheva being treat as a sheva nach (which is how it is in the Alcalay).  This is in my humble opinion.

~Haim

From: Heb-naco <heb-naco-bounces at lists.osu.edu<mailto:heb-naco-bounces at lists.osu.edu>> On Behalf Of Shinohara, Jasmin via Heb-naco
Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2019 11:00 AM
To: Hebrew Name Authority Funnel <heb-naco at lists.osu.edu<mailto:heb-naco at lists.osu.edu>>
Subject: [Heb-NACO] בגלל

Hello Collective Wisdom, please remind me: if there’s an entry in E-Sh., even if it ends with a “see also”, is that sufficient justification for romanizing the word as a word as opposed to a compound? E.g. בגלל has a direct entry, so I’d think it would be romanized biglal (NOT bigelal because as a whole word, the sheva would be considered merahef, ignored in romanization), but the entry also says “see גלל”. So which is it: Biglal or Bi-gelal?

Thanks, Jasmin

---
Jasmin Shinohara
Hebraica Cataloging Librarian
University of Pennsylvania
Van Pelt-Dietrich Library Center
3420 Walnut Street
Philadelphia, PA 19104-6206
T. 215-746-6397
jshino at upenn.edu<mailto:jshino at upenn.edu>

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Neil M. Frau-Cortes, Ph.D. (he, him, his)

Judaica, Hebraica and Metadata Cataloger

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--
Bob Talbott

Principal cataloger/Hebraica cataloger

UC Berkeley

250 Moffitt

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If they're too small for court, they're probably shorts.
If they're long and advanced, you're looking at pants
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