[Heb-NACO] vocalizing a word question

Wed Jul 26 14:51:01 EDT 2017

Does the instruction on page 19 of the manual that says “The yod in Hebrew is romanized as "y" only when it is followed by a vowel” apply to all yods, regardless of whether they are consonants or vowel letters?  If so, then we get det, if not, than it seems to me that the instruction on page 19 is unclear.

I think that Morfix (online) is based on the same database as Rav Milim (online), but Morfix is free, and Rav Milim is by subscription, which is the main reason for including Morfix as a possible source for romanization.  Rav Milim (online) has more useful features, such the dikduk section.   My library has a subscription to Rav Milim, so I very rarely use Morfix.

Are there any objections to adding Rav Milim (Online) and Morfix (Online) as authorized resources for Romanization of Hebrew words not found in the latest edition of Even-Shoshon?

I am on vacation starting tomorrow, for a week, and when I get back I will call on the Cataloging Committee to vote on this question.

Best wishes,
Jerry Anne

From: Heb-naco [mailto:heb-naco-bounces at lists.osu.edu] On Behalf Of Yossi Galron
Sent: Wednesday, July 26, 2017 2:30 PM
To: Hebrew Name Authority Funnel <heb-naco at lists.osu.edu>
Subject: Re: [Heb-NACO] vocalizing a word question

If the Yod is a consonant - then Yes, but is the Yod in דייט a consonant?

Yossi

Joseph (Yossi) Galron-Goldschläger
E-Mail: galron.1 at osu.edu<mailto:galron.1 at osu.edu>  or jgalron at gmail.com<mailto:jgalron at gmail.com>
Tel.: (614) 292-3362,  Fax: (614)292-1918
Lexicon of Modern Hebrew Literature: http://go.osu.edu/hebrewlit<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__go.osu.edu_hebrewlit&d=DwMFaQ&c=cjytLXgP8ixuoHflwc-poQ&r=cX-JfhQlUwhLVWvvsRM8LpRtWoJnc-1xOAkRHgoNXs0&m=M-eAGaTxydBMBzRGRQyoChe6SFcZguyoUVx4oduE--w&s=qeaijDJZB_-XYovkIkWrMh0kBE78-lvl9jRSKUwl_9A&e=>

On Wed, Jul 26, 2017 at 2:21 PM, Shinohara, Jasmin <jshino at pobox.upenn.edu<mailto:jshino at pobox.upenn.edu>> wrote:
It’s not beyt because there’s no sheva under the yod of בית. If the yod is consonantal, it is not “against our policy” to indicate its presence with a y. On the contrary, not doing so is against our policy.

From: Heb-naco [mailto:heb-naco-bounces at lists.osu.edu<mailto:heb-naco-bounces at lists.osu.edu>] On Behalf Of Yossi Galron
Sent: Wednesday, July 26, 2017 2:02 PM

To: Hebrew Name Authority Funnel
Subject: Re: [Heb-NACO] vocalizing a word question

I am definitely against Deyt - It is totally against our policy for Hebrew transliteration.
If Deyt then why not Beyt ....

Yossi

Joseph (Yossi) Galron-Goldschläger
E-Mail: galron.1 at osu.edu<mailto:galron.1 at osu.edu>  or jgalron at gmail.com<mailto:jgalron at gmail.com>
Tel.: (614) 292-3362<tel:(614)%20292-3362>,  Fax: (614)292-1918<tel:(614)%20292-1918>
Lexicon of Modern Hebrew Literature: http://go.osu.edu/hebrewlit<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__go.osu.edu_hebrewlit&d=DwMFaQ&c=cjytLXgP8ixuoHflwc-poQ&r=cX-JfhQlUwhLVWvvsRM8LpRtWoJnc-1xOAkRHgoNXs0&m=M-eAGaTxydBMBzRGRQyoChe6SFcZguyoUVx4oduE--w&s=qeaijDJZB_-XYovkIkWrMh0kBE78-lvl9jRSKUwl_9A&e=>

On Wed, Jul 26, 2017 at 1:50 PM, Gottschalk, Haim <hgot at loc.gov<mailto:hgot at loc.gov>> wrote:
I vote deyṭ

And I vote to add the Rav Milim or Morfix as authorized sources.

Haim

From: Heb-naco [mailto:heb-naco-bounces+hgot<mailto:heb-naco-bounces%2Bhgot>=loc.gov at lists.osu.edu<mailto:loc.gov at lists.osu.edu>] On Behalf Of Dickel, Geraldine
Sent: Wednesday, July 26, 2017 9:38 AM

To: Hebrew Name Authority Funnel
Subject: Re: [Heb-NACO] vocalizing a word question

So then the Romanization should be deyṭ?

Should the Cataloging Committee hold a vote on using Rav Milim or Morfix as an authorized source for Romanization of words that are not found in the most recent edition of Even-Shoshan?  Or should we wait until next summer’s cataloging committee meeting to discuss the question further?

Best wishes,
Jerry Anne Dickel

Hebraica Catalog librarian
Yale University Library

From: Heb-naco [mailto:heb-naco-bounces at lists.osu.edu] On Behalf Of Janet Shamir
Sent: Wednesday, July 26, 2017 8:43 AM
To: Hebrew Name Authority Funnel <heb-naco at lists.osu.edu<mailto:heb-naco at lists.osu.edu>>
Subject: Re: [Heb-NACO] vocalizing a word question

I'm sorry, but I disagree. This is not a case of Tsere Male. It is a Tsere (Romanized as e), followed by a consonantal Yod (i). The Yod is not part of the nikkud and therefore should be Romanized separately.
Tsere Male is Romanized as "e" because according to the Sepharadi tradition it is *not* vocalized as a diphthong. The correspondence with the Academy of the Hebrew language, quoted by Haim, shows that the Sheva under the Yod inדייט  is there *to indicate the diphthong*, and that it is *not* vocalized as the Yod in בית, and therefore should not be Romanized the same way.

---

Janet Shamir
Hebrew Cataloging Department
National Library of Israel

From: Heb-naco [mailto:heb-naco-bounces+janet.shamir=nli.org.il at lists.osu.edu] On Behalf Of Yossi Galron
Sent: Tuesday, July 25, 2017 4:46 PM
To: Hebrew Name Authority Funnel
Subject: Re: [Heb-NACO] vocalizing a word question

So according to our rules (if there is a Tsere under the Dalet), we have to romanize it as Det.
Am I correct?

Yossi

Joseph (Yossi) Galron-Goldschläger
E-Mail: galron.1 at osu.edu<mailto:galron.1 at osu.edu>  or jgalron at gmail.com<mailto:jgalron at gmail.com>
Tel.: (614) 292-3362<tel:(614)%20292-3362>,  Fax: (614)292-1918<tel:(614)%20292-1918>
Lexicon of Modern Hebrew Literature: http://go.osu.edu/hebrewlit<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__go.osu.edu_hebrewlit&d=DwMGaQ&c=cjytLXgP8ixuoHflwc-poQ&r=cX-JfhQlUwhLVWvvsRM8LpRtWoJnc-1xOAkRHgoNXs0&m=v2JJTzWeGRAQyvWjy0aNiJ67X50klm8iIx6Buhil0PI&s=1oOCtbEkWR3B7Si95kJR1BTlNxces8lWpNM1IVEgWu8&e=>

On Tue, Jul 25, 2017 at 9:27 AM, Gottschalk, Haim <hgot at loc.gov<mailto:hgot at loc.gov>> wrote:
According to an email correspondence with the Academy of the Hebrew Language:

“The word דייט is vocalized with צירי under the דל"ת and (silent) שווא under the יו"ד, thus:  דֵּיְט.”

And a follow up email

“the שווא under the יו"ד, though silent, is there to indicate that the יו"ד *is* pronounced -- i.e., to indicate the diphthong "ey" ("deyt").  "Native" Hebrew words, by comparison, never have a שווא under a יו"ד that follows צירי (compare -בֵּית = "bet").”

Haim

From: Heb-naco [mailto:heb-naco-bounces+hgot<mailto:heb-naco-bounces%2Bhgot>=loc.gov at lists.osu.edu<mailto:loc.gov at lists.osu.edu>] On Behalf Of Janet Shamir
Sent: Tuesday, July 25, 2017 9:06 AM

To: Hebrew Name Authority Funnel
Subject: Re: [Heb-NACO] vocalizing a word question

Rav-Milim and Morfix normalize it to דֵּיְט, with a Sheva under the Yod which indicates that it's consonantal. This is in accordance with the transliteration rules of the Academy of the Hebrew Language for foreign names (which do not necessarily apply for loan words, but are often used for them). In the case of a word without nikkud, those rules require a double Yod to indicate the original pronunciation.

A double-Yod is common in loan words, such as  טייפor דייט, as a transliteration of the diphthong EY.
They are pronounced with a double Sheva at the end, both silent, as two consequent Shevaim at the end of a word are always quiescent.

In my opinion, Yiddish Romanization should only be used for Yiddish words, since "a distinctively Yiddish name in a Hebrew context may be romanized as Yiddish" (hence, a name/word which is not distinctively Yiddish may not be Romanized as such).
If the Romanization attempts to represent the sound of the Hebrew words as they are pronounced by modern Israeli speakers, then loan words which contain a double Yod should be Romanized according to this pronunciation.
According to the ALA/LC Romanization rules, the Yod in Hebrew is Romanized as "y" only when it is followed by a vowel. However, the form daiṭ would be vocalized as (IPA) /daɪt/ instead of /deɪt/.
Thus, I would Romanize טייפ  and  דייט as ṭeip and  deiṭ, and words with the diphthong AY, such as בייט (byte) or טיים  (time), as baiṭ and ṭaim, as the diphthong  is Romanization in ALA-LC Romanization rules.
Sometimes,  יי is used in loan words as part of the Hebrew transliteration of "-tion", in which case they are pronounced (and in my opinion, should be Romanized as) "shen":  פרוטקשיין, קונקשיין, קולקשיין  (protection, connection and collection).

As for using Rav-Milim, I think it is a reliable source for the vocalization of contemporary Hebrew and loan words. Its editors can be contacted online with questions/corrections.
Their policy is described here:
http://www.ravmilim.co.il/adv/general/index.htm#m<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.ravmilim.co.il_adv_general_index.htm-23m&d=DwMGaQ&c=cjytLXgP8ixuoHflwc-poQ&r=cX-JfhQlUwhLVWvvsRM8LpRtWoJnc-1xOAkRHgoNXs0&m=v2JJTzWeGRAQyvWjy0aNiJ67X50klm8iIx6Buhil0PI&s=F1lPlYpbMhMXa9wLazXM0htaalJbh-CEZhP8f7rM8pI&e=>

---

Janet Shamir
Hebrew Cataloging Department
National Library of Israel

From: Heb-naco [mailto:heb-naco-bounces+janet.shamir=nli.org.il at lists.osu.edu] On Behalf Of Heidi G Lerner
Sent: Thursday, July 20, 2017 11:37 PM
To: Hebrew Name Authority Funnel
Subject: Re: [Heb-NACO] vocalizing a word question

mea culpa:

in Rav-Milim and Morfix דייט has been normalized to דיט, so it should be romanized as "deṭ'

I would like propose that we adopt Rav-Milim as another stanford for romanization/vocalization for the more contemporary words that have entered the Hebrew language since E-S' last edition of 2007 and do not appear there or in Alcalay.

i believe that we talked about this in years gone by.

Heidi G. Lerner

Metadata Librarian for Hebraica and Judaica

Metadata Dept.

Stanford University Libraries

Stanford, CA 94305-6004

ph: 650-725-9953<tel:(650)%20725-9953>

fax: 650-725-1120<tel:(650)%20725-1120>

e-mail: lerner at stanford.edu<mailto:lerner at stanford.edu>

________________________________
From: Heb-naco <heb-naco-bounces at lists.osu.edu<mailto:heb-naco-bounces at lists.osu.edu>> on behalf of Yossi Galron <jgalron at gmail.com<mailto:jgalron at gmail.com>>
Sent: Thursday, July 20, 2017 1:31 PM
To: Hebrew Name Authority Funnel
Subject: Re: [Heb-NACO] vocalizing a word question

Our rule is that it should be Dait  (two Yods are "ai")

Yossi

Joseph (Yossi) Galron-Goldschläger
E-Mail: galron.1 at osu.edu<mailto:galron.1 at osu.edu>  or jgalron at gmail.com<mailto:jgalron at gmail.com>
Tel.: (614) 292-3362<tel:(614)%20292-3362>,  Fax: (614)292-1918<tel:(614)%20292-1918>
Lexicon of Modern Hebrew Literature: http://go.osu.edu/hebrewlit<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__go.osu.edu_hebrewlit&d=DwMGaQ&c=cjytLXgP8ixuoHflwc-poQ&r=cX-JfhQlUwhLVWvvsRM8LpRtWoJnc-1xOAkRHgoNXs0&m=v2JJTzWeGRAQyvWjy0aNiJ67X50klm8iIx6Buhil0PI&s=1oOCtbEkWR3B7Si95kJR1BTlNxces8lWpNM1IVEgWu8&e=>

On Thu, Jul 20, 2017 at 4:28 PM, Gottschalk, Haim <hgot at loc.gov<mailto:hgot at loc.gov>> wrote:
Dear colleagues:

How would you vocalize דייט? I could not the word in the dictionaries, nor find it vocalized in worldcat, nor on the internet. The word is pronounced as “date” as going out on a date. I have Romanized it as “deyit”.

Thanks in advance.

Haim

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