[Heb-NACO] vocalizing a word question

Wed Jul 26 14:50:47 EDT 2017

I agree with Janet Shamir. Foreign words in Hebrew transliteration should not be treated as original Hebrew words since they represent other languages. The LC rules don’t hold in these cases.

Rachel

From: Heb-naco [mailto:heb-naco-bounces+rachel.leket-mor=asu.edu at lists.osu.edu] On Behalf Of Robert M. TALBOTT
Sent: Tuesday, July 25, 2017 1:08 PM
To: Hebrew Name Authority Funnel <heb-naco at lists.osu.edu>
Subject: Re: [Heb-NACO] vocalizing a word question

I'd say as it stands, it's neither correct nor incorrect, rather it is undefined because of the source, the method of reading the sheva, and the general lack of consensus.  It might help if we had a working amendment to/sign post in the romanization standards to accommodate.

Since it came up earlier in the conversation (and just a minute ago in my cataloging duties), it's worth reminding people that the "ei" diphthong is also not an option per the romanization standards; usage of the "ei" diphthong in Hebrew romanization per the LC standard is emphatically incorrect. Please do not use it.

B

On Tue, Jul 25, 2017 at 7:53 AM, Heidi G Lerner <lerner at stanford.edu<mailto:lerner at stanford.edu>> wrote:

Yes, that is correct according to ALA/LC romanzation of Hebrew.

Heidi G. Lerner

Metadata Librarian for Hebraica and Judaica

Metadata Dept.

Stanford University Libraries

Stanford, CA 94305-6004

ph: 650-725-9953<tel:(650)%20725-9953>

fax: 650-725-1120<tel:(650)%20725-1120>

e-mail: lerner at stanford.edu<mailto:lerner at stanford.edu>

________________________________
From: Heb-naco <heb-naco-bounces+lerner=stanford.edu at lists.osu.edu<mailto:stanford.edu at lists.osu.edu>> on behalf of Yossi Galron <jgalron at gmail.com<mailto:jgalron at gmail.com>>
Sent: Tuesday, July 25, 2017 6:45 AM
To: Hebrew Name Authority Funnel
Subject: Re: [Heb-NACO] vocalizing a word question

So according to our rules (if there is a Tsere under the Dalet), we have to romanize it as Det.
Am I correct?

Yossi

Joseph (Yossi) Galron-Goldschläger
E-Mail: galron.1 at osu.edu<mailto:galron.1 at osu.edu>  or jgalron at gmail.com<mailto:jgalron at gmail.com>
Tel.: (614) 292-3362<tel:(614)%20292-3362>,  Fax: (614)292-1918<tel:(614)%20292-1918>
Lexicon of Modern Hebrew Literature: http://go.osu.edu/hebrewlit<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__go.osu.edu_hebrewlit&d=DwMFaQ&c=l45AxH-kUV29SRQusp9vYR0n1GycN4_2jInuKy6zbqQ&r=tPhupptxc3iJD_aguos4yYwVn8L-XoTF6quFAv1XH-k&m=T3Fl0mwxsWa7GRw5r0LW3_FFc7yb0l23cP2MiNDbwmU&s=YT_H64dMYhtF3VAqQe8N0AcuMZgNuUX6A-CiJjOoSn4&e=>

On Tue, Jul 25, 2017 at 9:27 AM, Gottschalk, Haim <hgot at loc.gov<mailto:hgot at loc.gov>> wrote:
According to an email correspondence with the Academy of the Hebrew Language:

“The word דייט is vocalized with צירי under the דל"ת and (silent) שווא under the יו"ד, thus:  דֵּיְט.”

And a follow up email

“the שווא under the יו"ד, though silent, is there to indicate that the יו"ד *is* pronounced -- i.e., to indicate the diphthong "ey" ("deyt").  "Native" Hebrew words, by comparison, never have a שווא under a יו"ד that follows צירי (compare -בֵּית = "bet").”

Haim

From: Heb-naco [mailto:heb-naco-bounces+hgot<mailto:heb-naco-bounces%2Bhgot>=loc.gov at lists.osu.edu<mailto:loc.gov at lists.osu.edu>] On Behalf Of Janet Shamir
Sent: Tuesday, July 25, 2017 9:06 AM

To: Hebrew Name Authority Funnel
Subject: Re: [Heb-NACO] vocalizing a word question

Rav-Milim and Morfix normalize it to דֵּיְט, with a Sheva under the Yod which indicates that it's consonantal. This is in accordance with the transliteration rules of the Academy of the Hebrew Language for foreign names (which do not necessarily apply for loan words, but are often used for them). In the case of a word without nikkud, those rules require a double Yod to indicate the original pronunciation.

A double-Yod is common in loan words, such as  טייפor דייט, as a transliteration of the diphthong EY.
They are pronounced with a double Sheva at the end, both silent, as two consequent Shevaim at the end of a word are always quiescent.

In my opinion, Yiddish Romanization should only be used for Yiddish words, since "a distinctively Yiddish name in a Hebrew context may be romanized as Yiddish" (hence, a name/word which is not distinctively Yiddish may not be Romanized as such).
If the Romanization attempts to represent the sound of the Hebrew words as they are pronounced by modern Israeli speakers, then loan words which contain a double Yod should be Romanized according to this pronunciation.
According to the ALA/LC Romanization rules, the Yod in Hebrew is Romanized as "y" only when it is followed by a vowel. However, the form daiṭ would be vocalized as (IPA) /daɪt/ instead of /deɪt/.
Thus, I would Romanize טייפ  and  דייט as ṭeip and  deiṭ, and words with the diphthong AY, such as בייט (byte) or טיים  (time), as baiṭ and ṭaim, as the diphthong  is Romanization in ALA-LC Romanization rules.
Sometimes,  יי is used in loan words as part of the Hebrew transliteration of "-tion", in which case they are pronounced (and in my opinion, should be Romanized as) "shen":  פרוטקשיין, קונקשיין, קולקשיין  (protection, connection and collection).

As for using Rav-Milim, I think it is a reliable source for the vocalization of contemporary Hebrew and loan words. Its editors can be contacted online with questions/corrections.
Their policy is described here:
http://www.ravmilim.co.il/adv/general/index.htm#m<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.ravmilim.co.il_adv_general_index.htm-23m&d=DwMFaQ&c=l45AxH-kUV29SRQusp9vYR0n1GycN4_2jInuKy6zbqQ&r=tPhupptxc3iJD_aguos4yYwVn8L-XoTF6quFAv1XH-k&m=T3Fl0mwxsWa7GRw5r0LW3_FFc7yb0l23cP2MiNDbwmU&s=9sSN0L35gFIovP_LTMWHmtFArhFIUn7f-VfL4-4fHIw&e=>

---

Janet Shamir
Hebrew Cataloging Department
National Library of Israel

From: Heb-naco [mailto:heb-naco-bounces+janet.shamir=nli.org.il at lists.osu.edu] On Behalf Of Heidi G Lerner
Sent: Thursday, July 20, 2017 11:37 PM
To: Hebrew Name Authority Funnel
Subject: Re: [Heb-NACO] vocalizing a word question

mea culpa:

in Rav-Milim and Morfix דייט has been normalized to דיט, so it should be romanized as "deṭ'

I would like propose that we adopt Rav-Milim as another stanford for romanization/vocalization for the more contemporary words that have entered the Hebrew language since E-S' last edition of 2007 and do not appear there or in Alcalay.

i believe that we talked about this in years gone by.

Heidi G. Lerner

Metadata Librarian for Hebraica and Judaica

Metadata Dept.

Stanford University Libraries

Stanford, CA 94305-6004

ph: 650-725-9953<tel:(650)%20725-9953>

fax: 650-725-1120<tel:(650)%20725-1120>

e-mail: lerner at stanford.edu<mailto:lerner at stanford.edu>

________________________________
From: Heb-naco <heb-naco-bounces at lists.osu.edu<mailto:heb-naco-bounces at lists.osu.edu>> on behalf of Yossi Galron <jgalron at gmail.com<mailto:jgalron at gmail.com>>
Sent: Thursday, July 20, 2017 1:31 PM
To: Hebrew Name Authority Funnel
Subject: Re: [Heb-NACO] vocalizing a word question

Our rule is that it should be Dait  (two Yods are "ai")

Yossi

Joseph (Yossi) Galron-Goldschläger
E-Mail: galron.1 at osu.edu<mailto:galron.1 at osu.edu>  or jgalron at gmail.com<mailto:jgalron at gmail.com>
Tel.: (614) 292-3362<tel:(614)%20292-3362>,  Fax: (614)292-1918<tel:(614)%20292-1918>
Lexicon of Modern Hebrew Literature: http://go.osu.edu/hebrewlit<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__go.osu.edu_hebrewlit&d=DwMFaQ&c=l45AxH-kUV29SRQusp9vYR0n1GycN4_2jInuKy6zbqQ&r=tPhupptxc3iJD_aguos4yYwVn8L-XoTF6quFAv1XH-k&m=T3Fl0mwxsWa7GRw5r0LW3_FFc7yb0l23cP2MiNDbwmU&s=YT_H64dMYhtF3VAqQe8N0AcuMZgNuUX6A-CiJjOoSn4&e=>

On Thu, Jul 20, 2017 at 4:28 PM, Gottschalk, Haim <hgot at loc.gov<mailto:hgot at loc.gov>> wrote:
Dear colleagues:

How would you vocalize דייט? I could not the word in the dictionaries, nor find it vocalized in worldcat, nor on the internet. The word is pronounced as “date” as going out on a date. I have Romanized it as “deyit”.

Thanks in advance.

Haim

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--
Bob Talbott

Principal cataloger/Hebraica cataloger

UC Berkeley

250 Moffitt

Berkeley, CA 94720

I'm just mad about Saffron
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