[Heb-NACO] vocalizing a word question

Wed Jul 26 14:30:20 EDT 2017

If the Yod is a consonant - then Yes, but is the Yod in דייט a consonant?

Yossi

Joseph (Yossi) Galron-Goldschläger
E-Mail: galron.1 at osu.edu  or jgalron at gmail.com
Tel.: (614) 292-3362,  Fax: (614)292-1918
Lexicon of Modern Hebrew Literature: http://go.osu.edu/hebrewlit

On Wed, Jul 26, 2017 at 2:21 PM, Shinohara, Jasmin <jshino at pobox.upenn.edu>
wrote:

> It’s not beyt because there’s no sheva under the yod of בית. If the yod
> is consonantal, it is *not* “against our policy” to indicate its presence
> with a y. On the contrary, not doing so is against our policy.
>
>
>
> *From:* Heb-naco [mailto:heb-naco-bounces at lists.osu.edu] *On Behalf Of *Yossi
> Galron
> *Sent:* Wednesday, July 26, 2017 2:02 PM
>
> *To:* Hebrew Name Authority Funnel
> *Subject:* Re: [Heb-NACO] vocalizing a word question
>
>
>
> I am definitely against Deyt - It is totally against our policy for Hebrew
> transliteration.
>
> If Deyt then why not Beyt ....
>
>
>
> Yossi
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Joseph (Yossi) Galron-Goldschläger
> E-Mail: galron.1 at osu.edu  or jgalron at gmail.com
> Tel.: (614) 292-3362,  Fax: (614)292-1918 <(614)%20292-1918>
> Lexicon of Modern Hebrew Literature: http://go.osu.edu/hebrewlit
>
>
>
> On Wed, Jul 26, 2017 at 1:50 PM, Gottschalk, Haim <hgot at loc.gov> wrote:
>
> I vote deyṭ
>
>
>
> And I vote to add the Rav Milim or Morfix as authorized sources.
>
>
>
> Haim
>
>
>
> *From:* Heb-naco [mailto:heb-naco-bounces+hgot=loc.gov at lists.osu.edu] *On
> Behalf Of *Dickel, Geraldine
> *Sent:* Wednesday, July 26, 2017 9:38 AM
>
>
> *To:* Hebrew Name Authority Funnel
> *Subject:* Re: [Heb-NACO] vocalizing a word question
>
>
>
> So then the Romanization should be deyṭ?
>
>
>
> Should the Cataloging Committee hold a vote on using Rav Milim or Morfix
> as an authorized source for Romanization of words that are not found in the
> most recent edition of Even-Shoshan?  Or should we wait until next summer’s
> cataloging committee meeting to discuss the question further?
>
>
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Jerry Anne Dickel
>
>
>
> Hebraica Catalog librarian
>
> Yale University Library
>
>
>
> *From:* Heb-naco [mailto:heb-naco-bounces at lists.osu.edu
> <heb-naco-bounces at lists.osu.edu>] *On Behalf Of *Janet Shamir
> *Sent:* Wednesday, July 26, 2017 8:43 AM
> *To:* Hebrew Name Authority Funnel <heb-naco at lists.osu.edu>
> *Subject:* Re: [Heb-NACO] vocalizing a word question
>
>
>
> I'm sorry, but I disagree. This is not a case of Tsere Male. It is a Tsere
> (Romanized as e), followed by a consonantal Yod (i). The Yod is not part of
> the nikkud and therefore should be Romanized separately.
>
> Tsere Male is Romanized as "e" because according to the Sepharadi
> tradition it is **not** vocalized as a diphthong. The correspondence with
> the Academy of the Hebrew language, quoted by Haim, shows that the Sheva
> under the Yod inדייט  is there **to indicate the diphthong**, and that it
> is* *not** vocalized as the Yod in בית, and therefore should not be
> Romanized the same way.
>
>
>
>
>
> ---
>
>
>
> Janet Shamir
>
> Hebrew Cataloging Department
>
> National Library of Israel
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Heb-naco [mailto:heb-naco-bounces+janet.shamir=nli.org.il at lists.
> osu.edu <heb-naco-bounces+janet.shamir=nli.org.il at lists.osu.edu>] *On
> Behalf Of *Yossi Galron
> *Sent:* Tuesday, July 25, 2017 4:46 PM
> *To:* Hebrew Name Authority Funnel
> *Subject:* Re: [Heb-NACO] vocalizing a word question
>
>
>
> So according to our rules (if there is a Tsere under the Dalet), we have
> to romanize it as Det.
>
> Am I correct?
>
>
>
> Yossi
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Joseph (Yossi) Galron-Goldschläger
> E-Mail: galron.1 at osu.edu  or jgalron at gmail.com
> Tel.: (614) 292-3362,  Fax: (614)292-1918 <(614)%20292-1918>
> Lexicon of Modern Hebrew Literature: http://go.osu.edu/hebrewlit
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__go.osu.edu_hebrewlit&d=DwMGaQ&c=cjytLXgP8ixuoHflwc-poQ&r=cX-JfhQlUwhLVWvvsRM8LpRtWoJnc-1xOAkRHgoNXs0&m=v2JJTzWeGRAQyvWjy0aNiJ67X50klm8iIx6Buhil0PI&s=1oOCtbEkWR3B7Si95kJR1BTlNxces8lWpNM1IVEgWu8&e=>
>
>
>
> On Tue, Jul 25, 2017 at 9:27 AM, Gottschalk, Haim <hgot at loc.gov> wrote:
>
> According to an email correspondence with the Academy of the Hebrew
> Language:
>
>
>
> “The word דייט is vocalized with צירי under the דל"ת and (silent) שווא under
> the יו"ד, thus:  דֵּיְט.”
>
>
>
> And a follow up email
>
>
>
> “the שווא under the יו"ד, though silent, is there to indicate that the יו"ד
> *is* pronounced -- i.e., to indicate the diphthong "ey" ("deyt").
>  "Native" Hebrew words, by comparison, never have a שווא under a יו"ד that
> follows צירי (compare -בֵּית = "be*t*").”
>
>
>
>
>
> Haim
>
>
>
> *From:* Heb-naco [mailto:heb-naco-bounces+hgot=loc.gov at lists.osu.edu] *On
> Behalf Of *Janet Shamir
> *Sent:* Tuesday, July 25, 2017 9:06 AM
>
>
> *To:* Hebrew Name Authority Funnel
> *Subject:* Re: [Heb-NACO] vocalizing a word question
>
>
>
> Rav-Milim and Morfix normalize it to דֵּיְט, with a Sheva under the Yod
> which indicates that it's consonantal. This is in accordance with the
> transliteration rules of the Academy of the Hebrew Language for foreign
> names (which do not necessarily apply for loan words, but are often used
> for them). In the case of a word without nikkud, those rules require a
> double Yod to indicate the original pronunciation.
>
>
>
> A double-Yod is common in loan words, such as  טייפor דייט, as a
> transliteration of the diphthong EY.
>
> They are pronounced with a double Sheva at the end, both silent, as two
> consequent Shevaim at the end of a word are always quiescent.
>
>
>
> In my opinion, Yiddish Romanization should only be used for Yiddish words,
> since "a distinctively Yiddish name in a Hebrew context may be romanized as
> Yiddish" (hence, a name/word which is not distinctively Yiddish may not be
> Romanized as such).
>
> If the Romanization attempts to represent the sound of the Hebrew words as
> they are pronounced by modern Israeli speakers, then loan words which
> contain a double Yod should be Romanized according to this pronunciation.
>
> According to the ALA/LC Romanization rules, the Yod in Hebrew is Romanized
> as "y" only when it is followed by a vowel. However, the form daiṭ would be
> vocalized as (IPA) /daɪt/ instead of /deɪt/.
>
> Thus, I would Romanize טייפ  and  דייט as ṭeip and  deiṭ, and words with
> the diphthong AY, such as בייט (byte) or טיים  (time), as baiṭ and ṭaim,
> as the diphthong  is Romanization in ALA-LC Romanization rules.
>
> Sometimes,  יי is used in loan words as part of the Hebrew
> transliteration of "-tion", in which case they are pronounced (and in my
> opinion, should be Romanized as) "shen":  פרוטקשיין, קונקשיין, קולקשיין  (protection,
> connection and collection).
>
>
>
> As for using Rav-Milim, I think it is a reliable source for the
> vocalization of contemporary Hebrew and loan words. Its editors can be
> contacted online with questions/corrections.
>
> Their policy is described here:
>
> http://www.ravmilim.co.il/adv/general/index.htm#m
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.ravmilim.co.il_adv_general_index.htm-23m&d=DwMGaQ&c=cjytLXgP8ixuoHflwc-poQ&r=cX-JfhQlUwhLVWvvsRM8LpRtWoJnc-1xOAkRHgoNXs0&m=v2JJTzWeGRAQyvWjy0aNiJ67X50klm8iIx6Buhil0PI&s=F1lPlYpbMhMXa9wLazXM0htaalJbh-CEZhP8f7rM8pI&e=>
>
>
>
>
>
> ---
>
>
>
> Janet Shamir
>
> Hebrew Cataloging Department
>
> National Library of Israel
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Heb-naco [mailto:heb-naco-bounces+janet.shamir=nli.org.il at lists.
> osu.edu <heb-naco-bounces+janet.shamir=nli.org.il at lists.osu.edu>] *On
> Behalf Of *Heidi G Lerner
> *Sent:* Thursday, July 20, 2017 11:37 PM
> *To:* Hebrew Name Authority Funnel
> *Subject:* Re: [Heb-NACO] vocalizing a word question
>
>
>
> mea culpa:
>
>
>
> in Rav-Milim and Morfix דייט has been normalized to דיט, so it should be
> romanized as "deṭ'
>
>
>
>
>
> I would like propose that we adopt Rav-Milim as another stanford for
> romanization/vocalization for the more contemporary words that have entered
> the Hebrew language since E-S' last edition of 2007 and do not appear there
> or in Alcalay.
>
>
>
> i believe that we talked about this in years gone by.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Heidi G. Lerner
>
> Metadata Librarian for Hebraica and Judaica
>
> Metadata Dept.
>
> Stanford University Libraries
>
> Stanford, CA 94305-6004
>
> ph: 650-725-9953 <(650)%20725-9953>
>
> fax: 650-725-1120 <(650)%20725-1120>
>
> e-mail: lerner at stanford.edu
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> *From:* Heb-naco <heb-naco-bounces at lists.osu.edu> on behalf of Yossi
> Galron <jgalron at gmail.com>
> *Sent:* Thursday, July 20, 2017 1:31 PM
> *To:* Hebrew Name Authority Funnel
> *Subject:* Re: [Heb-NACO] vocalizing a word question
>
>
>
> Our rule is that it should be Dait  (two Yods are "ai")
>
>
>
> Yossi
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Joseph (Yossi) Galron-Goldschläger
> E-Mail: galron.1 at osu.edu  or jgalron at gmail.com
> Tel.: (614) 292-3362,  Fax: (614)292-1918 <(614)%20292-1918>
> Lexicon of Modern Hebrew Literature: http://go.osu.edu/hebrewlit
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__go.osu.edu_hebrewlit&d=DwMGaQ&c=cjytLXgP8ixuoHflwc-poQ&r=cX-JfhQlUwhLVWvvsRM8LpRtWoJnc-1xOAkRHgoNXs0&m=v2JJTzWeGRAQyvWjy0aNiJ67X50klm8iIx6Buhil0PI&s=1oOCtbEkWR3B7Si95kJR1BTlNxces8lWpNM1IVEgWu8&e=>
>
>
>
> On Thu, Jul 20, 2017 at 4:28 PM, Gottschalk, Haim <hgot at loc.gov> wrote:
>
> Dear colleagues:
>
>
>
> How would you vocalize דייט? I could not the word in the dictionaries,
> nor find it vocalized in worldcat, nor on the internet. The word is
> pronounced as “date” as going out on a date. I have Romanized it as “deyit”.
>
>
>
> Thanks in advance.
>
>
>
> Haim
>
>
>
> **************************************************************************
>
> Haim A Gottschalk (Librarian)
>
> Library of Congress, Israel and Judaica Section
>
> 101 Independence Avenue, SE, LM-537 (4222)
>
> Washington, D.C. 20540-4222 U.S.A.
>
>
>
> Phone - +1 (202) 707-2498 <(202)%20707-2498> * Fax - +1 (202) 707-4587
> <(202)%20707-4587> * hgot at loc.gov
>
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