[Heb-NACO] Transliterating yud heh vav heh

Mon Jul 17 20:34:59 EDT 2017

Here's an item from the Library of Congress catalog:

Schleisner, Uriel.
Keshe-Elohim ṿe-Yaḥṿeh nifgeshu / Uriʼel Shlaisner.
<https://catalog.loc.gov/vwebv/holdingsInfo?searchId=17282&recCount=25&recPointer=4&bibId=11841803>
Kefar Ṿeradim : Hotsaʼat Uriʼel--adam ṿe-ṭekhnologyah, [1999]
BS1235.2 .S337 1999 Hebr

On Mon, Jul 17, 2017 at 2:16 AM, Freedman, Vanessa <v.freedman at ucl.ac.uk>
wrote:

> I agree number 2 is the best option. I’d like to see some examples of
> number 4.
>
>
>
> Best wishes
>
>
>
> Vanessa
>
>
>
> Vanessa Freedman
>
> Subject Liaison Librarian: Hebrew & Jewish Studies and Information Studies
>
> UCL Library Services
>
> University College London
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> *From:* Heb-naco [mailto:heb-naco-bounces+v.freedman=ucl.ac.uk at lists.osu.
> edu] *On Behalf Of *Dickel, Geraldine
> *Sent:* 14 July 2017 20:04
> *To:* 'heb-naco at lists.acs.ohio-state.edu' <heb-naco at lists.acs.ohio-
> state.edu>
>
> *Subject:* Re: [Heb-NACO] Transliterating yud heh vav heh
>
>
>
> Hi Jasmin and Haim, and other colleagues,
>
>
>
> I am also in favor of number 2 and agree that that option makes the most
> sense.  We would be Romanizing according to the vowels and disregarding the
> consonants, if the intent of the vowels is to give Adonai or Elohim.  The
> consonants would be present in the Hebrew 245 field, and we can add as many
> 246 fields as we think are necessary to provide access.
>
>
>
> The “modern” vocalization (number 4) is from an email from Joan.  It would
> be the tetragrammaton with a patah and a segol vowel to give Yahṿeh (
> יַהְוֶה), (in English, Yahweh), which is how academic biblical scholars
> think that the divine name was pronounced.  Number 4 goes along with number
> 1, i.e., we give priority in Romanizing the tetragrammaton to the vowels,
> but in the case of the “modern” vocalization, the vowels and the consonants
> would be consistent with the intended pronunciation.
>
>
>
> The main reason that I included number 1 was in case there are any
> religious objections to writing out fully Adonai or Elohim, or in the case
> of the “modern” vocalization, to writing out Yahṿeh.
>
>
>
> I can’t remember seeing a title with a Romanized tetragrammaton, so it
> would be nice to have some examples, just to see what sort of vowels exist.
>
>
>
> Best,
>
> Jerry Anne
>
>
>
> *From:* Shinohara, Jasmin [mailto:jshino at pobox.upenn.edu
> <jshino at pobox.upenn.edu>]
> *Sent:* Friday, July 14, 2017 11:27 AM
> *To:* Hebrew Name Authority Funnel <heb-naco at lists.osu.edu>; Dickel,
> Geraldine <geraldine.dickel at yale.edu>
> *Subject:* RE: [Heb-NACO] Transliterating yud heh vav heh
>
>
>
> My comments below in green.  Thanks, Jasmin
>
>
>
> *From:* Heb-naco [mailto:heb-naco-bounces at lists.osu.edu
> <heb-naco-bounces at lists.osu.edu>] *On Behalf Of *Dickel, Geraldine
> *Sent:* Friday, July 14, 2017 10:19 AM
> *To:* Hebrew Name Authority Funnel
> *Subject:* Re: [Heb-NACO] Transliterating yud heh vav heh
>
>
>
> Dear colleagues,
>
>
>
> It seems to me that we are in agreement that the unvocalized
> tetragrammaton should be Romanized in the 245 field as YHṾH.  For a
> vocalized tetragrammaton, we have several suggestions or options.  To
> summarize:
>
>
>
> 1.       Romanize as YHṾH, i.e. follow the consonants and ignore the
> vowels in the 245.  Perhaps add a 500 note to say something like:
> tetragrammaton is vocalized as ______.  (A library that prefers to use
> variations on words for the deity could do so in a 500 note, e.g., Elokim
> instead of Elohim.)
>
> If vowels are supplied, they should not be ignored; that’s not the
> author’s intent.
>
> 2.       If the vowels are the vowels for Adonai or Elohim, Romanize as
> Adonai or Elohim, i.e., follow the vowels and ignore the consonants.
>
> Makes most sense (with an added title access point for the title with the
> YHṾH form and possibly other forms, depending on context).
>
> 3.       If the vowels are the vowels for Adonai or Elohim, Romanize as
> Yehoṿah, i.e., follow the vowels and the consonants.
>
> Doesn’t make any sense; if one follows both vowels and consonants, the
> romanization would be Yahovai or Yehovi, neither of which is in any use.
>
> 4.       If it is a modern vocalization, Romanize as Yahṿeh, i.e. follow
> the vowels and consonants.
>
> What’s a “modern” vocalization???
>
>
>
> I think that, until we have more time to consider the question and perhaps
> collect some examples, we might need to deal with vocalized tetragrammatons
> on a case by case basis.
>
>
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Jerry Anne
>
>
>
> *From:* Heb-naco [mailto:heb-naco-bounces at lists.osu.edu
> <heb-naco-bounces at lists.osu.edu>] *On Behalf Of *Yossi Galron
> *Sent:* Friday, July 07, 2017 3:11 PM
> *To:* Hebrew Name Authority Funnel <heb-naco at lists.osu.edu>
> *Subject:* Re: [Heb-NACO] Transliterating yud heh vav heh
>
>
>
> We, back in the Holy Land,  secular Sabras pronounced the All Mighty's
> name YHVH as Yehovah.
>
>
>
> If our teacher was from a religious background he would correct us and
> say: Adonai. If he would come from a more orthodox background, he would
> correct us to Ha-Shem.
>
> When we read the Shma we would say Adonai.
>
> In any case, I am for YHVH and an appropriate 246 for variants.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Jul 7, 2017 8:27 AM, "Freedman, Vanessa" <v.freedman at ucl.ac.uk> wrote:
>
> I agree with Jasmin. I can’t imagine anyone would read (or search for) the
> Tetragrammaton (even if vocalised) as ‘Yehovah’
>
>
>
> Vanessa
>
>
>
> Vanessa Freedman
>
> Subject Liaison Librarian: Hebrew & Jewish Studies and Information Studies
>
> UCL Library Services
>
> University College London
>
> Gower Street
>
> London WC1E 6BT
>
>
>
> Tel (Mon, Thu, Fri): +44 (0)20 7679 2598 <+44%2020%207679%202598>
> (Internal ext. 32598)
>
> Tel (Tue, Wed): +44 (0)20 7679 4405 <+44%2020%207679%204405> (Internal
> ext. 34405)
>
> Fax: +44 (0) 20 7679 7373 <+44%2020%207679%207373>
>
> E-mail: v.freedman at ucl.ac.uk
>
> Twitter: @UCLHJSLibrary @vrfreedman
>
> Website: www.ucl.ac.uk/library
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.ucl.ac.uk_library&d=DwMFaQ&c=cjytLXgP8ixuoHflwc-poQ&r=cX-JfhQlUwhLVWvvsRM8LpRtWoJnc-1xOAkRHgoNXs0&m=Yq03sEwFiLkQcPqmuNfJcAbQbJB4H8l0cQrqmkpmtwE&s=N2i3H4YzmIxEQme4pheeTnibq-6D0_XkHVY56D8bbj8&e=>
>
>
>
> **Please remember the environment and only print this if necessary**
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Heb-naco [mailto:heb-naco-bounces at lists.osu.edu] *On Behalf Of *Shinohara,
> Jasmin
> *Sent:* 06 July 2017 16:28
> *To:* Hebrew Name Authority Funnel <heb-naco at lists.osu.edu>
> *Subject:* Re: [Heb-NACO] Transliterating yud heh vav heh
>
>
>
> I don’t think that formulation is clear, Jerry Anne. Typically, where
> vowels are supplied, it is to indicate whether the Name should be
> pronounced as Ado-nai or as Elokim. To say “it should be Romanized with the
> vowels as given in the source” may imply using the YHṾH consonants with
> the addition of the supplied vowels, but those consonants are not
> (typically) intended to be pronounced. I think if the vocalization is
> given, that form (Ado-nai or Elokim) should be in the 245 with the addition
> of YHṾH in the 246.
>
>
>
> My half cent. Jasmin
>
>
>
> *From:* Heb-naco [mailto:heb-naco-bounces+jshino=pobox.upenn.edu at lists.
> osu.edu <heb-naco-bounces+jshino=pobox.upenn.edu at lists.osu.edu>] *On
> Behalf Of *Dickel, Geraldine
> *Sent:* Thursday, July 06, 2017 11:17 AM
> *To:* rtalbott at library.berkeley.edu; Hebrew Name Authority Funnel
> *Subject:* Re: [Heb-NACO] Transliterating yud heh vav heh
>
>
>
> Good question.  If the vowels are supplied should the Tetragrammaton be
> Romanized with the vowels?
>
>
>
> Should the HCM say: The unvocalized Tetragrammaton, יהוה, should be
> Romanized YHṾH.  If the Tetragrammaton is vocalized it should be Romanized
> with the vowels as given in the source.”
>
>
>
> Thoughts?
>
>
>
> Best,
>
> Jerry Anne
>
>
>
> *From:* Robert M. TALBOTT [mailto:rtalbott at library.berkeley.edu
> <rtalbott at library.berkeley.edu>]
> *Sent:* Thursday, July 06, 2017 10:58 AM
> *To:* Dickel, Geraldine <geraldine.dickel at yale.edu>; Hebrew Name
> Authority Funnel <heb-naco at lists.osu.edu>
> *Subject:* Re: [Heb-NACO] Transliterating yud heh vav heh
>
>
>
> Well, it's been lost in the dust up, but what about cases where vowels are
> supplied?  Or is the Tetragrammaton always YHVH in all instances,
> euphemistic added entries not with standing?
>
>
>
> On Thu, Jul 6, 2017 at 6:27 AM, Dickel, Geraldine <
> geraldine.dickel at yale.edu> wrote:
>
> I have added: “The Tetragrammaton, יהוה, should be Romanized YHṾH.” to
> page 32 of the HCM under Names of the Divinity.  Jasmin has also added it
> to the Romanization FAQ document on the AJL RAS Cataloging wiki.
>
>
>
> Thank you,
>
> Jerry Anne
>
>
>
> *From:* Heb-naco [mailto:heb-naco-bounces+geraldine.dickel=yale.edu@
> lists.osu.edu] *On Behalf Of *Robert M. TALBOTT
> *Sent:* Wednesday, July 05, 2017 5:31 PM
> *To:* Hebrew Name Authority Funnel <heb-naco at lists.osu.edu>
> *Subject:* Re: [Heb-NACO] Transliterating yud heh vav heh
>
>
>
> Thanks folks.
>
>
>
> Is there any chance we could get a transliteration advisory covering this
> included in the HCM? 'Twould be quite handy for those few times it actually
> happens.
>
>
>
> B
>
>
>
> On Wed, Jul 5, 2017 at 1:59 PM, Judith Zupnick <judiezup at msn.com> wrote:
>
> I agree with Joan.
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> *From:* Heb-naco <heb-naco-bounces+judiezup=msn.com at lists.osu.edu> on
> behalf of Joan Biella <jbiella2632 at gmail.com>
> *Sent:* Wednesday, July 5, 2017 1:39 PM
> *To:* Hebrew Name Authority Funnel
> *Subject:* Re: [Heb-NACO] Transliterating yud heh vav heh
>
>
>
> I agree with Aaron, and would advocate for YHVH (subscript dot under V) as
> the least controversial way to deal with this situation.
>
> Joan
>
>
>
> On Wed, Jul 5, 2017 at 1:22 PM, Kuperman, Aaron <akup at loc.gov> wrote:
>
> Assuming there are no nekudot, would it not be presumptuous for a
> cataloger to claim to know how it would be pronounced.
>
>
>
> Aaron Kuperman, LC Law Cataloging Section.
>
> This is not an official communication from my employer
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Heb-naco [mailto:heb-naco-bounces+akup=loc.gov at lists.osu.edu] *On
> Behalf Of *Robert M. TALBOTT
> *Sent:* Wednesday, July 05, 2017 3:49 PM
> *To:* Hebrew Name Authority Funnel
> *Subject:* [Heb-NACO] Transliterating yud heh vav heh
>
>
>
> Hi folks:
>
>
>
> I'm cataloging a book right now that has the tetragrammaton in the title.
>
>
>
> 1) YHVH? This is what the record has
>
> 2) Yehovah? My preference
>
> 3) Yahveh? As good as any other
>
> 4) Or should we use a euphemism,e.g ha-Shem?
>
>
>
> I'm not invested in this one and am agnostic as to the outcome, but which
> form is preferred? The euphemism 'ha-Shem" and "Adonai" are already slotted
> in the record as added title entries.
>
>
>
> B
> --
>
> Bob Talbott
>
> Principal cataloger/Hebraica cataloger
>
> UC Berkeley
>
> 250 Moffitt
>
> Berkeley, CA 94720
>
> I'm just mad about Saffron
>
>
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>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Bob Talbott
>
> Principal cataloger/Hebraica cataloger
>
> UC Berkeley
>
> 250 Moffitt
>
> Berkeley, CA 94720
>
> I'm just mad about Saffron
>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Bob Talbott
>
> Principal cataloger/Hebraica cataloger
>
> UC Berkeley
>
> 250 Moffitt
>
> Berkeley, CA 94720
>
> I'm just mad about Saffron
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Heb-naco mailing list
> Heb-naco at lists.osu.edu
> https://lists.osu.edu/mailman/listinfo/heb-naco
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