[Heb-NACO] words starting with דרמ-

Mon May 2 16:38:10 EDT 2016

Thank you, Heidi ☺.

Let me know, please, when last year’s minutes and the agenda for this year are ready for posting on the wiki.

Best wishes, Jasmin

From: Heb-naco [mailto:heb-naco-bounces+jshino=pobox.upenn.edu at lists.osu.edu] On Behalf Of Heidi G Lerner
Sent: Monday, May 02, 2016 12:47 PM
To: Hebrew Name Authority Funnel
Subject: Re: [Heb-NACO] words starting with דרמ-

I will add this issue to the agenda for the AJL RAS Cataloging meeting in June for a general group discussion.

After sharing our colleagues thoughts, the committee will revisit the issue and make a new decision. If we change the current guidelines, the changes will be reflected in the the upcoming update to RDA Hebraica cataloging (due Summer 2016).

Heidi G. Lerner

Metadata Librarian for Hebraica and Judaica

Metadata Dept.

Stanford University Libraries

Stanford, CA 94305-6004

ph: 650-725-9953

fax: 650-725-1120

e-mail: lerner at stanford.edu<mailto:lerner at stanford.edu>

________________________________
From: Heb-naco <heb-naco-bounces+lerner=stanford.edu at lists.osu.edu<mailto:heb-naco-bounces+lerner=stanford.edu at lists.osu.edu>> on behalf of Yossi Galron <jgalron at gmail.com<mailto:jgalron at gmail.com>>
Sent: Monday, May 2, 2016 9:25 AM
To: Hebrew Name Authority Funnel
Subject: Re: [Heb-NACO] words starting with דרמ-

Although I supported keeping the status quo on Pesefas/Psefas - I agree now that we need to change our policy and remove the Alcalay rule for those words that are Greek/Latin in origin.
The reason I voted to keep the status quo for Pesefas/Psefas was the much work it would bring on us in cleaning up the database. But it looks that we are coming back to the same question again and again and it's time to solve it.
Let's change all Dermah to Dramah and Pesikhologyah to Psikhologyah - ve-yavo al Tsiyon go'el.

Yossi

Joseph (Yossi) Galron-Goldschläger
E-Mail: galron.1 at osu.edu<mailto:galron.1 at osu.edu>  or jgalron at gmail.com<mailto:jgalron at gmail.com>
Tel.: (614) 292-3362,  Fax: (614)292-1918
Lexicon of Modern Hebrew Literature: http://go.osu.edu/hebrewlit

On Mon, May 2, 2016 at 11:54 AM, Shinohara, Jasmin <jshino at pobox.upenn.edu<mailto:jshino at pobox.upenn.edu>> wrote:
Yes, the Cataloging Committee did recently review psefas/pesefas, but IIRC the decision was to maintain the status quo.  I don’t recall what factors went into making that decision.

As for following Alcalay’s vocalization, I’m not sure how that’s helpful since he can be so inconsistent.  Take the example of [psych], for which he has the following entries:

Psikhah (for Psyche, myth.)
Psikhoanaliṭi
Psikhoanaliṭiḳai
Psikho’analisah (-zah)
Psikhogeni
Psikhozah
Psikhografah
Psikhografyah
Psikhoṭekhni
Psikhonṭekhniḳah
Psikholog
Psikhologi

BUT, the first exception with a sheva

Pesikhologyah, followed by a bunch of different types of psychology, NONE of one which have a sheva under the peh:
Psikhologyah geneṭit/hevdelit/ḥinukhit/le-ta’aśiyah/mashṿah/ and on, and on.

THEN, another exception with a sheva

Pesikhologizatsyah, followed by more entries with NO sheva:
Psikhologism
Psikhosomaṭi
Psikhofisi
Psikhofisikah
Psikhopat
Psikhopatologi
Psikhopatologyah

THEN, a final exception with a sheva

Pesikhopati, followed by more entries with NO sheva:
Psikhopatyah
Psikhi
Psikhi’aṭor
Psikhi’aṭri, and the last,
Psikhi’aṭriyah

I cannot find any logic behind which words are vocalized and which are not, but it contradicts Heidi’s principle below that words based on a word with a sheva would also have a sheva.

Nevertheless, Alcalay is consistent with his entries for [dram], which makes my question moot, if not food for thought…
Deramah
Deramaṭurg
Dermaṭurgiyah
Deramaṭizatsyah
Deramati
Deramatiyut

(I didn’t see them till now, which is what prompted the original email.  Apologies, Jasmin)

From: Heb-naco [mailto:heb-naco-bounces+jshino<mailto:heb-naco-bounces%2Bjshino>=pobox.upenn.edu at lists.osu.edu<mailto:pobox.upenn.edu at lists.osu.edu>] On Behalf Of Joan Biella
Sent: Friday, April 29, 2016 7:11 PM
To: Hebrew Name Authority Funnel
Subject: Re: [Heb-NACO] words starting with דרמ-

The rule being followed here is the one that says Alcalay's vocalization determines the romanization of words with ambiguous initial shevas.  If his dictionary prints the sheva, we romanize it as "e."  This rule was laid down for the benefit of catalogers who don't have access to spoken Hebrew sources, and ensures a standard romanization for everyone.
Perhaps it is time to reconsider this rule, as some catalogers in some circumstances certainly find it annoying.  The recent exchange about psefas/pesefas dealt with the same issue.  Should this be discussed seriously by the cataloging committee?
Joan

On Fri, Apr 29, 2016 at 6:34 AM, Neil Manel Frau-Cortes <nfrau at umd.edu<mailto:nfrau at umd.edu>> wrote:
No offense, but have you ever tried to explain the crazy "deramah" exception to somebody who is not a Hebrew cataloger?

Whoever has the power could just have eliminated the exception instead of adding to it.

All linguistic systems tend to regularization<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regularization_(linguistics)>. In any codification system, the more exceptions you add to rules, the less effective the code is.

שבת שלום ומעדים לשמחה

Neil

On Thu, Apr 28, 2016 at 5:44 PM, Heidi G Lerner <lerner at stanford.edu<mailto:lerner at stanford.edu>> wrote:

I would certainly think so. I can't think why not.

The wod, while not of themselves completely foreign words: they are based on one.

Just my thoughts.

Best, Heidi

Heidi G. Lerner

Metadata Librarian for Hebraica and Judaica

Metadata Dept.

Stanford University Libraries

Stanford, CA 94305-6004

ph: 650-725-9953<tel:650-725-9953>

fax: 650-725-1120<tel:650-725-1120>

e-mail: lerner at stanford.edu<mailto:lerner at stanford.edu>

________________________________
From: Shinohara, Jasmin <jshino at pobox.upenn.edu<mailto:jshino at pobox.upenn.edu>>
Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2016 2:13 PM
To: Hebrew Name Authority Funnel
Cc: Heidi G Lerner
Subject: words starting with דרמ-

HCM2 clearly states דרמה as exception to vocalization of foreign loan words (“first sheṿa in a foreign loan word with an initial consonantal cluster is generally treated as a sheṿa naḥ…” cf. p. 19).  Do other words starting with that “root” follow that same exception, e.g. דרמטורגיה, דרמטי, דרמטיזציה, etc.?

Thank, Jasmin

---

Jasmin Shinohara

Hebraica Cataloging Librarian

University of Pennsylvania

Van Pelt-Dietrich Library Center

3420 Walnut Street

Philadelphia, PA 19104-6206

T. 215-746-6397<tel:215-746-6397>

F. 215-573-9610<tel:215-573-9610>

jshino at upenn.edu<mailto:jshino at upenn.edu>

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--

Neil M. Frau-Cortes, Ph.D.

Judaica, Hebraica and Metadata Cataloger

McKeldin Library

University of Maryland
College Park, MD 20742
Phone (301) 405-9337<tel:%28301%29%20405-9337>

nfrau at umd.edu<http://nfrau@umd.edu>

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