[Heb-NACO] יומני זהרה

Fri Jul 15 11:19:39 EDT 2016

So true. I should measure up my words. What I meant is that often times
Romanization is just Cataloguish, It only makes sense for catalogers, and
that's due to the accumulation of layer after layer of rules; but if we
take a group of 10 random users (native or now), and make them search
romanized Hebrew, they would hardly ever come to such "deramatik" solutions
:)

On Fri, Jul 15, 2016 at 10:38 AM, Shinohara, Jasmin <jshino at pobox.upenn.edu>
wrote:

> Who’s to define what’s “just absurd”?  What’s “absurd” to one person may
> not be to another.  (Other than those for whom the entire Romanization
> enterprise is “absurd” ;-) )
>
>
>
> שבת שלום, Jasmin
>
>
>
> *From:* Heb-naco [mailto:heb-naco-bounces+jshino=
> pobox.upenn.edu at lists.osu.edu] *On Behalf Of *Neil Manel Frau-Cortes
> *Sent:* Friday, July 15, 2016 8:28 AM
>
> *To:* Hebrew Name Authority Funnel
> *Subject:* Re: [Heb-NACO] יומני זהרה
>
>
>
> I wouldn't make a rule of compulsory adding alternate romanizations, but
> would be open-minded for cases when the romanization is just absurd and no
> user would ever think of that form when searching.
>
>
>
> שבת שלום
>
> Neil
>
>
>
> On Thu, Jul 14, 2016 at 5:05 PM, Shinohara, Jasmin <jshino at pobox.upenn.edu>
> wrote:
>
> You are right in the sense that I misspoke when saying the Sephardic
> tradition is “erroneous” per say; clearly it is not.  Nevertheless, the
> fact is that the other versions I’ve ever seen aren’t even the Sephardic
> versions.  They’re usually a complete mishmash: i.e. zohara (for the noun),
> while the Sephardic would be zahora, and taharah, which in the Sephardic
> would be tahorah.
>
>
>
> There are currently 24 bib records in OCLC with “tahorah”, and they are
> mostly JTS records.  Many of these records also have alternate entries for
> “tohorah”.  Per the former Princeton Romanization FAQ (now on the wiki),
> the accepted ALA/LC romanization is “tohorah”.  There are over 700 bib
> records with that form of the word.  A search of authority records
> retrieves 90 NARs with “tohorah” in them; 0 with “tahorah”.  (There are 41
> NARs with “taharah,” BUT only 2 are in Hebrew NARs [i.e., errors]; the
> remaining 39 are in Arabic NARs.)
>
>
>
> As far as I’ve learned, when it comes to bib records, we don’t add
> alternate Romanizations (unless it’s a matter of male/female, complete
> ambiguity, etc.).  Do we want to start doing that?
>
>
>
> Jasmin
>
>
>
> *From:* Heb-naco [mailto:heb-naco-bounces at lists.osu.edu] *On Behalf Of *Barry
> Walfish
> *Sent:* Thursday, July 14, 2016 4:02 PM
>
>
> *To:* Hebrew Name Authority Funnel
> *Subject:* Re: [Heb-NACO] יומני זהרה
>
>
>
> Thank you, Janet, for the helpful clarification.
>
>
>
> Jasmin, I was wondering where in the rules it says that the Sephardic
> tradition is “erroneous.” The Academy article states clearly that both
> traditions are valid ((יש להן על מה שיסמוכו, though the “kamats katan”
> position is more widely accepted.
>
>
>
> Barry
>
>
>
> Dr. Barry Dov Walfish
>
> Judaica and Theology Specialist
>
> Collection Development Department and
>
> Thomas Fisher Rare Book Library
>
> University of Toronto Library
>
> 130 St. George St.
>
> Toronto, ON
>
> Canada M5S 1A5
>
>
>
> Phone: 416-946-3176 or 416-978-4319
>
> Fax:  416-978-1667 or 416-946-0635
>
> e-mail: barry.walfish at utoronto.ca
>
>
>
> *From:* Heb-naco [
> mailto:heb-naco-bounces+barry.walfish=utoronto.ca at lists.osu.edu
> <heb-naco-bounces+barry.walfish=utoronto.ca at lists.osu.edu>] *On Behalf Of
> *Shinohara, Jasmin
> *Sent:* Thursday, July 14, 2016 1:38 PM
> *To:* Hebrew Name Authority Funnel <heb-naco at lists.osu.edu>
> *Subject:* Re: [Heb-NACO] יומני זהרה
>
>
>
> Thank you very much for your complete reply (and reference to the Academy
> article), Janet!
>
>
>
> In the US, most libraries follow the ALA/LC Romanization practice of
> vocalizing a ḳamats preceding a  ֳ(ḥaṭaf ḳamats) as a ḳamats ḳaṭan.
> Hence, tohorah/Noʻomi/tsohorayim, and the noun zohorah.  Further, since the
> alternate Romanization is considered erroneous, the practice is not to add
> alternate titles with those vocalizations.
>
>
>
> Nevertheless, you make an excellent point regarding the difference between
> nouns and names.  I look forward to hearing how the Academy rules in the
> case of the name Z?h?rah.
>
>
>
> Thanks again and best wishes,
>
>
>
> Jasmin
>
>
>
> *From:* Heb-naco [mailto:heb-naco-bounces at lists.osu.edu
> <heb-naco-bounces at lists.osu.edu>] *On Behalf Of *Janet Shamir
> *Sent:* Thursday, July 14, 2016 12:04 PM
> *To:* Hebrew Name Authority Funnel
> *Subject:* Re: [Heb-NACO] יומני זהרה
>
>
>
> The vocalization of a ḳamats preceding a ֳ  (ḥaṭaf ḳamats) is
> controversial:
>
> According to Sepharadic vocalization tradition, it is considered long
> (ḳamats gadol), as are all ḳamatsim in open syllables, and pronounced A.
>
> According to current rules and popular vocalization, it is considered
> short (ḳamats ḳaṭan), as are all vowels preceding a ḥaṭaf, and pronounced O.
>
> According to the Academy of the Hebrew Language, both are correct, and
> therefore Tahorah=Tohorah, Naʻomi=Noʻomi, tsahorayim=tsohorayim, and the
> rare* noun* zahorah=zohorah.
>
> For official purposes, that ḳamats is usually pronounced O (on the news,
> at official public ceremonies etc.)
>
> The noun טָהֳרָה  is also vocalized טַהֲרָה, just as the nounצָהֳלָה  can
> also be vocalized צַהֲלָה.
>
>
>
> Personally, I would add references in authority files for all such cases.
>
>
>
> (see Academy of the Hebrew Language at
> http://hebrew-academy.org.il/2010/03/24/%D7%A6%D6%B8%D7%94%D6%B3%D7%A8%D6%B7%D7%99%D6%B4%D7%9D-%D7%A0%D6%B8%D7%A2%D6%B3%D7%9E%D6%B4%D7%99-%D7%94%D7%92%D7%99%D7%99%D7%AA-%D7%A7%D7%9E%D7%A5-%D7%9C%D7%A4%D7%A0%D7%99-%D7%97%D7%98/
> ).
>
>
>
> As for the *personal name* Zoharah, I think it should be treated as a
> derivative of the masculine Hebrew name Zohar. Hebrew names are often
> treated differently than the words that originated them (e.g.,
> (יִצְחָק/יִצְחַק.
>
> Zohra Alfasiya was a Moroccan singer. Her name was a *Moroccan* name and
> pronounced accordingly. Israelis usually pronounce it Zohara, like the
> Hebrew equivalent. However, I don't think it can be taken as an example of
> the Hebrew name.
>
>
>
> I've sent a question to the Academy regarding the name,
>
> will update,
>
>
>
> Janet
>
>
>
> [image: cid:image001.jpg at 01D146F3.DFDF84E0]
> <http://web.nli.org.il/sites/NLI/English/Pages/default.aspx>
>
>
>
> *Janet shamir*
>
> Hebrew Language Cataloguing Department
>
>
>
> The National Library of Israel, Jerusalem
>
> *janet.shamir at nli.org.il <janet.shamir at nli.org.il>*  *|*  *www.nli.org.il*
> <http://web.nli.org.il/sites/NLI/English/Pages/default.aspx>
>
> [image: cid:image002.png at 01D146F3.DFDF84E0]
> <http://www.facebook.com/NationalLibraryofIsrael>  [image:
> cid:image003.png at 01D146F3.DFDF84E0]
> <http://www.youtube.com/user/NLI2010/featured>  [image:
> cid:image004.png at 01D146F3.DFDF84E0] <http://instagram.com/nli_israel>  [image:
> cid:image005.png at 01D146F3.DFDF84E0]
> <http://www.flickr.com/photos/64126959@N03/collections/>
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Heb-naco [mailto:heb-naco-bounces at lists.osu.edu
> <heb-naco-bounces at lists.osu.edu>] *On Behalf Of *Heidi G Lerner
> *Sent:* Tuesday, July 12, 2016 1:20 AM
> *To:* Hebrew Name Authority Funnel
> *Subject:* Re: [Heb-NACO] יומני זהרה
>
>
>
> a ḳamats katan is recognizable if it
>
>
>
> 1) is derive from a deficient holam
>
>
>
> 2) ita appears before a furtive ḳamats
>
>
>
> 3) it comes in place of a furtive ḳamats (a furtive ḳamats is pronounced
> like a short ḳamats
>
>
>
>
>
> Heidi G. Lerner
>
> Metadata Librarian for Hebraica and Judaica
>
> Metadata Dept.
>
> Stanford University Libraries
>
> Stanford, CA 94305-6004
>
> ph: 650-725-9953
>
> fax: 650-725-1120
>
> e-mail: lerner at stanford.edu
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> *From:* Heb-naco <heb-naco-bounces at lists.osu.edu> on behalf of Shinohara,
> Jasmin <jshino at pobox.upenn.edu>
> *Sent:* Monday, July 11, 2016 3:13 PM
> *To:* Hebrew Name Authority Funnel
> *Subject:* Re: [Heb-NACO] יומני זהרה
>
>
>
> Thank you, Yossi.  Hopefully Joan will chime in at some point to clarify
> the rules…
>
>
>
> *From:* Heb-naco [
> mailto:heb-naco-bounces+jshino=pobox.upenn.edu at lists.osu.edu
> <heb-naco-bounces+jshino=pobox.upenn.edu at lists.osu.edu>] *On Behalf Of *Yossi
> Galron
> *Sent:* Monday, July 11, 2016 6:05 PM
> *To:* Hebrew Name Authority Funnel
> *Subject:* Re: [Heb-NACO] יומני זהרה
>
>
>
> Colleagues
>
> Check ES: vol. 2 pages 478 and 634 it says:
>
>
>
> זהרה (קראו: זוהורה)
>
>
>
> טהרה (קראו:טוהורה)
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Joseph (Yossi) Galron-Goldschläger
> E-Mail: galron.1 at osu.edu  or jgalron at gmail.com
> Tel.: (614) 292-3362,  Fax: (614)292-1918
> Lexicon of Modern Hebrew Literature: http://go.osu.edu/hebrewlit
>
>
>
> On Mon, Jul 11, 2016 at 6:00 PM, Barry Walfish <barry.walfish at utoronto.ca>
> wrote:
>
> So is this just one of those cases where the rules don’t apply and vox
> populi takes over? Becase hataf ḳamats should be o for sure. Zohara breaks
> all the rules.
>
>
>
> Dr. Barry Dov Walfish
>
> Judaica and Theology Specialist
>
> Collection Development Department and
>
> Thomas Fisher Rare Book Library
>
> University of Toronto Library
>
> 130 St. George St.
>
> Toronto, ON
>
> Canada M5S 1A5
>
>
>
> Phone: 416-946-3176 or 416-978-4319
>
> Fax:  416-978-1667 or 416-946-0635
>
> e-mail: barry.walfish at utoronto.ca
>
>
>
> *From:* Heb-naco [mailto:heb-naco-bounces at lists.osu.edu] *On Behalf Of *Rachel
> Leket-Mor
> *Sent:* Monday, July 11, 2016 5:54 PM
>
>
> *To:* Hebrew Name Authority Funnel <heb-naco at lists.osu.edu>
> *Subject:* Re: [Heb-NACO]
>
> יומני זהרה
>
>
>
> It is definitely ḳamats katan.
>
>
>
> *From:* Heb-naco [
> mailto:heb-naco-bounces+rachel.leket-mor=asu.edu at lists.osu.edu
> <heb-naco-bounces+rachel.leket-mor=asu.edu at lists.osu.edu>] *On Behalf Of *Shinohara,
> Jasmin
> *Sent:* Monday, July 11, 2016 2:43 PM
> *To:* Hebrew Name Authority Funnel
> *Subject:* Re: [Heb-NACO] יומני זהרה
>
>
>
> If only there were a “bat signal” to call for Joan…  Joan, are you out
> there?  We need you! J
>
>
>
> *From:* Heb-naco [mailto:heb-naco-bounces at lists.osu.edu
> <heb-naco-bounces at lists.osu.edu>] *On Behalf Of *Barry Walfish
> *Sent:* Monday, July 11, 2016 5:35 PM
> *To:* Hebrew Name Authority Funnel
> *Subject:* Re: [Heb-NACO] יומני זהרה
>
>
>
> I would think it should be zahorah and tahorah, because there’s a ḳamats
> under the zayin (and tet) and the syllable is open.
>
>
>
> Zohar and tohar have a holam haser.
>
>
>
> I suspect there may a reason to support Jasmin’s opinion, but I’m not sure
> what it is.
>
>
>
> E.g., Should it be Tahorot or Tohorot? I think both are acceptable but
> Tahorot makes more sense according to the rules.
>
>
>
> Barry
>
>
>
> Dr. Barry Dov Walfish
>
> Judaica and Theology Specialist
>
> Collection Development Department and
>
> Thomas Fisher Rare Book Library
>
> University of Toronto Library
>
> 130 St. George St.
>
> Toronto, ON
>
> Canada M5S 1A5
>
>
>
> Phone: 416-946-3176 or 416-978-4319
>
> Fax:  416-978-1667 or 416-946-0635
>
> e-mail: barry.walfish at utoronto.ca
>
>
>
> *From:* Heb-naco [
> mailto:heb-naco-bounces+barry.walfish=utoronto.ca at lists.osu.edu
> <heb-naco-bounces+barry.walfish=utoronto.ca at lists.osu.edu>] *On Behalf Of
> *Shinohara, Jasmin
> *Sent:* Monday, July 11, 2016 5:14 PM
> *To:* Hebrew Name Authority Funnel <heb-naco at lists.osu.edu>
> *Subject:* Re: [Heb-NACO] יומני זהרה
>
>
>
> Oh, ok, sorry.  I wasn’t sure if you were adding to or disagreeing with my
> prior email J.
>
>
>
> *From:* Heb-naco [mailto:heb-naco-bounces at lists.osu.edu
> <heb-naco-bounces at lists.osu.edu>] *On Behalf Of *Yossi Galron
> *Sent:* Monday, July 11, 2016 5:12 PM
> *To:* Hebrew Name Authority Funnel
> *Subject:* Re: [Heb-NACO] יומני זהרה
>
>
>
> Yes, It Is. :-)
>
>
>
> Yossi
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Joseph (Yossi) Galron-Goldschläger
> E-Mail: galron.1 at osu.edu  or jgalron at gmail.com
> Tel.: (614) 292-3362,  Fax: (614)292-1918
> Lexicon of Modern Hebrew Literature: http://go.osu.edu/hebrewlit
>
>
>
> On Mon, Jul 11, 2016 at 5:11 PM, Shinohara, Jasmin <jshino at pobox.upenn.edu>
> wrote:
>
> But then isn’t it also Zohorah like tohorah?
>
>
>
> *From:* Heb-naco [mailto:heb-naco-bounces at lists.osu.edu] *On Behalf Of *Yossi
> Galron
> *Sent:* Monday, July 11, 2016 5:09 PM
> *To:* Hebrew Name Authority Funnel
> *Subject:* Re: [Heb-NACO] יומני זהרה
>
>
>
> Yes, it is Zohar like Tohar
>
>
>
>
> Joseph (Yossi) Galron-Goldschläger
> E-Mail: galron.1 at osu.edu  or jgalron at gmail.com
> Tel.: (614) 292-3362,  Fax: (614)292-1918
> Lexicon of Modern Hebrew Literature: http://go.osu.edu/hebrewlit
>
>
>
> On Mon, Jul 11, 2016 at 4:33 PM, Shinohara, Jasmin <jshino at pobox.upenn.edu>
> wrote:
>
> FYI, the name  זהרהis vocalized the same as the word טהרה, hence it
> should be vocalized as Zohorah.  For those with holdings on ocn884405085,
> you may wish to update your local record.
>
>
>
> Thanks, Jasmin
>
>
>
> ---
>
> Jasmin Shinohara
>
> Hebraica Cataloging Librarian
>
> University of Pennsylvania
>
> Van Pelt-Dietrich Library Center
>
> 3420 Walnut Street
>
> Philadelphia, PA 19104-6206
>
> T. 215-746-6397
>
> F. 215-573-9610
>
> jshino at upenn.edu
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Heb-naco mailing list
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>
>
>
>
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>
>
>
>
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>
>
>
>
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>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> *Neil M. Frau-Cortes, Ph.D.*
>
> Judaica, Hebraica and Metadata Cataloger
>
> McKeldin Library
>
> University of Maryland
> College Park, MD 20742
> Phone (301) 405-9337
>
> nfrau at umd.edu
>
> _______________________________________________
> Heb-naco mailing list
> Heb-naco at lists.osu.edu
> https://lists.osu.edu/mailman/listinfo/heb-naco
>
>

-- 

*Neil M. Frau-Cortes, Ph.D.*

Judaica, Hebraica and Metadata Cataloger

McKeldin Library

University of Maryland
College Park, MD 20742
Phone (301) 405-9337

nfrau at umd.edu
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