[Heb-NACO] Romanization Question

Thu Nov 5 12:16:38 EST 2015

I think there is very little to say from a Hebrew grammar point of view as loan words hardly follow regular vocalization rules. As you know, I never liked solutions like "deramah." No matter how faithful to the rules and authorized sources, I don't know a single user that would type that in order to find דרמה

Therefore I would advocate for certain leniency or common sense. I think it's safe to assume we should transliterate the word as pesefas, but it wouldn't be a bad idea to add a 246.3 for psefas, and I think we should do the same for confusing cases such as deramah.

Neil M. Frau-Cortes, Ph.D.
Judaica, Hebraica and Metadata Cataloger
McKeldin Library
University of Maryland
College Park, MD 20742
Phone (301) 405-9337
nfrau at umd.edu

-----Original Message-----
From: Heb-naco [mailto:heb-naco-bounces at lists.osu.edu] On Behalf Of Heidi G Lerner
Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2015 11:47 AM
To: Hebrew Name Authority Funnel; rtalbott at library.berkeley.edu
Subject: Re: [Heb-NACO] Romanization Question

What I have found is interesting: 

My Even-Shoshan edition ( copyright 2003, 2006 printing)

has: Pesefas (from Greek: pesefos); Alkalay has "Pesefas".

Here is the text from our manual:

The first sheṿa in a foreign loan word with an initial consonantal cluster is generally treated as a sheṿa naḥ. For correct romanization it is necessary to consult Even-Shoshan and Alcalay on a case-by-case basis. These initial clusters retain the effect of vowel "heightening"--the sheṿa of the prefixes be-, ke-, and le- becomes a ḥiriḳ: bi-, ki-, li-.
ALA-LC Romanization:
Israel. Lishkah ha-merkazit Ii-sṭaṭisṭiḳah.
ישראל. לשכה המרכזית לסטטיסטיקה.
Universiṭah ha-‘Ivrit bi-Yerushalayim. Makhon li-ḳriminologyah.
אוניברסיטה העברית בירושלים. מכון לקרימינולוגיה
but:
deramah [cf. Alcalay; translation: drama] A few loan words are also treated as though exempt from the rules governing the aspiration/ non-aspiration of b/v, k/kh, and p/f when preceded by an open syllable.
be-Polin [not: be-Folin] (translation: in Poland)

I also checked Jastrow and it has have (citing Misnhah Avot: Schecter edition)

Pesipas (from the Hebrew: פס; פסיסה)

All you Hebrew grammarians out there, can you step in?

If we cannot come to a consensus I would suggest that we go with "pesefas" since that is the vocalization that is provided in both ES and Alkalay

Best, Heidi

Heidi G. Lerner
Metadata Librarian for Hebraica and Judaica
Metadata Dept.
Stanford University Libraries
Stanford, CA 94305-6004
ph: 650-725-9953
fax: 650-725-1120
e-mail: lerner at stanford.edu

________________________________________
From: Heb-naco <heb-naco-bounces+lerner=stanford.edu at lists.osu.edu> on behalf of Robert M. TALBOTT <rtalbott at library.berkeley.edu>
Sent: Thursday, November 5, 2015 7:47 AM
To: Hebrew Name Authority Funnel
Subject: Re: [Heb-NACO] Romanization Question

Hi Smadar

Looking in ES, the romanization is given as "pesifas," with a citation
from Avot. My two cents on the matter is that though this is a loan
word, it's been in the language long enough to be naturalized.

When in doubt, check the HCM:
http://online.sfsu.edu/biella/HCM2/hcm.html.  Click on  "Hebrew and
Yiddish romanization" then scroll down to "Foreign loan words." We are
apparently no longer obliged to check Alcalay, though it's still of
use.

Bob

On Wed, Nov 4, 2015 at 11:01 AM, sshtuhl <sshtuhl at upenn.edu> wrote:
> Hi all,
> I have a question about the word פסיפס, which is originated from Greek. As a
> foreign-loan word it should be Romanized as 'psefas' but in entries it
> appears as 'pesefas'. Does anyone have any thoughts on this discrepancy?
> Thanks,
> Smadar
>
> --
> Smadar Shtuhl
> Hebraica Library Specialist
> University of Pennsylvania
> Van Pelt-Dietrich Library Center
> 3420 Walnut Street
> Philadelphia, PA 19104-6206
> F. 215-573-9610
> sshtuhl at upenn.edu
>
> _______________________________________________
> Heb-naco mailing list
> Heb-naco at lists.osu.edu
> https://lists.osu.edu/mailman/listinfo/heb-naco

--
Bob Talbott

Principal cataloger/Hebraica cataloger

UC Berkeley

250 Moffitt

Berkeley, CA 94720

יול נא מי באי מאי בלאק טעלעסקאפ
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