[Heb-NACO] ha-rofe? (Physician)? ha-Rofe? Something else?

Mon Sep 15 17:57:50 EDT 2014

Hi Barry, 

Thanks for pointing it out. There is actually a discrepancy between the Title of the article and the way the name appears in the 1st line. 

The title reads "Jacob ben Joseph ha-Rofeh" and as you point out it it is "ha-Rofe" without an "h". 

ha-Rofe appears to be correct since that is how the name appears in Hebrew "הרופא״". 

Someone should notify Professor Stillman. 

Best, Heidi 

----- Original Message -----

From: "Barry Walfish" <barry.walfish at utoronto.ca> 
To: "Hebrew Name Authority Funnel" <heb-naco at lists.osu.edu> 
Sent: Monday, September 15, 2014 2:22:31 PM 
Subject: Re: [Heb-NACO] ha-rofe? (Physician)? ha-Rofe? Something else? 

Dear All, 

There seems to be a typo in that heading. It should be ha-Rofe without the h. In the first line of the article that’s the way it is. 

Barry 

From: Heb-naco [mailto:heb-naco-bounces at lists.osu.edu] On Behalf Of Heidi G Lerner 
Sent: September 15, 2014 4:38 PM 
To: Hebrew Name Authority Funnel 
Subject: Re: [Heb-NACO] ha-rofe? (Physician)? ha-Rofe? Something else? 

Hi Neil, 

Thank you very much for your comments. I think that your recommendation to include the form found as is in the Encyclopedia of Jewish in the Islamic World, " Jacob ben Joseph,|cha-Rofeh,|d -1851" is very valid, and after reviewing the situation with my supervisor who is also a NACO trainer we are both very comfortable in having this form added as a xref. 

So Bob, here is how I think the NAR should look 

100 0 Jacob ben Joseph,|d -1851 

400 0 Jacob ben Joseph,|cha-Rofeh,|d -1851 

400 0 Harofe, Ya ʻ aḳov ben Yosef,|d -1851 

400 0 Ya ʻ aḳov ben Yosef,|d 1851 

400 0 Jacob ben Joseph ben Jawb,|d -1851 

and of course a 670 for the Encycloepdia of the Jews in Islamic Countries and a revision of the 670 for the Encyclopedia Judaica; and please request BFM 

Let me know if you have further questions or comments. 

Thanks, Heidi 

----- Original Message -----

From: "Neil Manel Frau-Cortes" < nfrau at umd.edu > 
To: "Hebrew Name Authority Funnel" < heb-naco at lists.osu.edu > 
Sent: Monday, September 15, 2014 5:04:09 AM 
Subject: Re: [Heb-NACO] ha-rofe? (Physician)? ha-Rofe? Something else? 

I really don’t agree. It is fine if you don’t want it as the main entry. However, if the Encyclopedia of Jews in the Islamic World and other sources call him ha-Rofe (capitals or not), what do you gain by suppressing it all together from the cross-references? Your rules will be well served, your users perhaps not so much. 

Neil M. Frau-Cortes, Ph.D. 

Judaica, Hebraica and Metadata Cataloger 

McKeldin Library 

University of Maryland 
College Park, MD 20742 
Phone (301) 405-9337 

nfrau at umd.edu 

From: Heb-naco [ mailto:heb-naco-bounces at lists.osu.edu ] On Behalf Of Heidi G Lerner 
Sent: Friday, September 12, 2014 5:05 PM 
To: Hebrew Name Authority Funnel 
Subject: Re: [Heb-NACO] ha-rofe? (Physician)? ha-Rofe? Something else? 

the usage in ספר שמן טוב = is " בכר " according to OCLC. So actually the romanization would be b.k. in the statement of responsibility 

The patronymic particle "b." is always given in full when used in a personal-name heading. Care must always be taken to distinguish the patronymic particle "b." from "B." as an abbreviation. 

So the 4th cross reference should be: 

Jacob ben Joseph,|cha-Rofeh,|d -1851 

and the 5th xref should be: 

Harofe, Ya ʻ aḳov ben Yosef,|d -1851 

ha-rofe should not be added to these xrefs 

Thanks, Heidi 

From: "Rachel Simon" < rsimon at Princeton.EDU > 
To: "Hebrew Name Authority Funnel" < heb-naco at lists.osu.edu >, rtalbott at library.berkeley.edu 
Sent: Friday, September 12, 2014 1:17:23 PM 
Subject: Re: [Heb-NACO] ha-rofe? (Physician)? ha-Rofe? Something else? 

Shouldn't this 
Ya ʻ aḳov Bekhar Yosef, ǂ c ha-rofe 
really be 
Ya ʻ aḳov b.k. ha-R. Yosef, ǂ c ha-rofe 

Rachel 
________________________________________ 
From: Heb-naco [heb-naco-bounces at lists.osu.edu] on behalf of Heidi G Lerner [lerner at stanford.edu] 
Sent: Friday, September 12, 2014 3:50 PM 
To: rtalbott at library.berkeley.edu ; Hebrew Name Authority Funnel 
Subject: Re: [Heb-NACO] ha-rofe? (Physician)? ha-Rofe? Something else? 

Hi Bob, 
First of all this heading was established incorrectly under AACR2 and also the 2nd 670 was not formulated correctly. We only use the romanized form if the name found in the EJ If the name is found as the heading for an article about the person. In this case the romanized form is found in v.12, page 899. This information should be recorded in the 2nd 670 and the systematically romanized Hebrew form of the name found in the resource cited in the first 670 should be the heading, with the EJ form being the xref. 
That being said, as part of your recoding the NAR the first thing I would do is look at the Hebrew form and determine how to correctly formulate according to RDA. 

What you have currently is: 

Ya ʻ aḳov Bekhar Yosef, ǂ c ha-rofe 

So now we look at your original question to determine if "ha-rofe" is a title or not. 

I would go first go to RDA 9.4.1.1 which tells us that 
" 
Title of the person▼< http://access.rdatoolkit.org/document.php?id=rdagloss&target=rdagloss-1956#rdagloss-1956 > is a word or phrase indicative of royalty, nobility, or ecclesiastical rank or office, a term of address for a person of religious vocation, or another term indicative of rank, honour, or office. 
Title of the person excludes terms of address that simply indicate gender or marital status (e.g., Mr., Mrs.)." 

So we need to decide if "ha-rofe" is indicative or rank,honour or office as prescribed in 9.4.1.9. 

"Record other titles of the person indicative of rank, honour, or office if the terms appear with the name. Record the term in the language in which it was conferred or in the language used in the country in which the person resides." 

I checked to see if "ha-rofe" is used as a designation of rank, office or honour. I looked in the Jewish Encyclpoedia (1904) and it did not appear in the article "Title of Honor." 

I looked him up in the Encylcopedia of Jews in the Islamic World and in article with his name at the head (Jacob ben Joseph ha-Rofeh) says that he was a dayan and rabbinic scholar in Baghdad but nothing about being a doctor. He died Oct. 5. 1851. 

Up through the Middle Ages Jews generally used forenames but with different types of designations appended to them (place of birth, occupation), etc. and surnames did to really come into use in until the 18th and 19th centuries. Certainly "ha-rofe" [the doctor] was an occupation that Jews engaged in for centuries. 

I personally do not consider "ha-rofe" a surname and we know that Ya ʻ aḳov Bekhar Yosef was not a doctor. 

So, my thought is to establish him as: 
Jacob ben Joseph,|d -1851 (based on the romanized form found in the Encyclopedia of Jews in the Islamic World): I have chosen this form since we are in the process of recoding and reevaluating the heading, thus we should refer to he Encyclopedia of Jews in the Islamic World as pe LC-PCC-PS 9.2.2.5.3; although ha-Rofe is part of the name in the article about him, it is very difficult to consider or decide if ha-Rofe is a term indicative of rank, honor or office, an addition those types of terms are not core elements; it is not an occupation since we know he was not a doctor 

So, my thought is to establish him as: 
Jacob ben Joseph,|d -1851 

I would hame cross-references from: 

400 1 Harofeh, Jacob ben Joseph,|d -1851 
400Yosef, Ya ʻ akov Bekhar,|d -1851 
400 0 Jacob ben Joseph ben Jawb ,|d -1851 
400 0 Ya ʻ aḳov Bekhar Yosef,|d -1851 
400 1 Harofe, Ya ʻ aḳov Bekhar Yosef,|d -1851 

I am eager to hear others' thoughts. 

Thanks, Heidi 

________________________________ 
From: "Robert M. TALBOTT" < rtalbott at library.berkeley.edu > 
To: "Hebrew Name Authority Funnel" < heb-naco at lists.service.ohio-state.edu > 
Sent: Friday, September 12, 2014 10:55:22 AM 
Subject: [Heb-NACO] ha-rofe? (Physician)? ha-Rofe? Something else? 

Hi folks: 

I have a question about capitalization treating an after-name title. I'd like to get a bit of feedback before stepping off into the abyss. 

Anyhow: 

I'd like to upgrade to RDA the record with the heading Jacob ben Joseph ben Jawb, $c ha-rofe (OCLC AR 475823), but sadly the record is one requiring review before using in an RDA record. Predictably, the rub is how to treat "ha-Rofe." I suppose one could read it as the equivalent of something like "$c (Physician)" though on the surface I'd favor reading it as a title of some sort. But since the type of title sways the capitalization rules (RDA A.31), what sort of a title is it? One might very well assume it's a professional title (RDA A.11.5.4), resulting in "$c ha-rofe. " If one squints hard enough, I suppose one of the other options could work, but that's a stretch in my estimation when one looks at the options available in RDA A.11.5. 

My concern here is that I may be missing something obvious or otherwise. Please advise. 

Bob 
-- 

Bob Talbott 

Principal cataloger/Hebraica cataloger 

UC Berkeley 

250 Moffitt 

Berkeley, CA 94720 

We're happy as fish, 
as gorgeous as geese, 
and wonderfully clean in the morning. 

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-- 
Heidi G. Lerner 
Metadata Librarian for Hebraica and Judaica 
Metadata Development Unit 
Stanford University Libraries 
Stanford, CA 94305-6004 
e-mail: lerner at stanford.edu 
ph: 650-725-9953 
fax: 650-725-1120 

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Heidi G. Lerner 
Metadata Librarian for Hebraica and Judaica 
Metadata Development Unit 
Stanford University Libraries 
Stanford, CA 94305-6004 
e-mail: lerner at stanford.edu 
ph: 650-725-9953 
fax: 650-725-1120 

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Heb-naco mailing list 
Heb-naco at lists.osu.edu 
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-- 

Heidi G. Lerner 
Metadata Librarian for Hebraica and Judaica 
Metadata Development Unit 
Stanford University Libraries 
Stanford, CA 94305-6004 
e-mail: lerner at stanford.edu 
ph: 650-725-9953 
fax: 650-725-1120 

_______________________________________________ 
Heb-naco mailing list 
Heb-naco at lists.osu.edu 
https://lists.osu.edu/mailman/listinfo/heb-naco 

-- 
Heidi G. Lerner 
Metadata Librarian for Hebraica and Judaica 
Metadata Development Unit 
Stanford University Libraries 
Stanford, CA 94305-6004 
e-mail: lerner at stanford.edu 
ph: 650-725-9953 
fax: 650-725-1120 

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