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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=EN-US link=blue vlink=purple><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal>Yes, as to the history of racial descriptors in English. Additionally, “black priests” may simply refer to priests generally—priests who-are-dressed-in-black-vetements.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-GB>Brenda<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:black'>Brenda Helt<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:black'>Co-editor <i>Queer Bloomsbury</i> (with Madelyn Detloff)<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:10.0pt'><a href="https://edinburghuniversitypress.com/book-queer-bloomsbury.html">https://edinburghuniversitypress.com/book-queer-bloomsbury.html</a><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:10.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Vwoolf [mailto:vwoolf-bounces@lists.osu.edu] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Diane Reynolds via Vwoolf<br><b>Sent:</b> Sunday, April 29, 2018 6:35 AM<br><b>To:</b> Adolphe Haberer<br><b>Cc:</b> vwoolf@lists.osu.edu<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Vwoolf] "The 'Increasing' Black Population in Virginia Woolf's Fiction"<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>Thanks Stuart. I look forward to reading your article but enjoyed what you pointed out. The problem is how ambiguous these statements are in English, as you note. I recently read Kate Briggs’ <i>This Little Art </i>where she struggles with issues of translation, especially her own translations of Barthes last lectures, and difficulties translating Thomas Mann into English, among other things. Briggs would argue that a translated work, is to some extent, a new creation because of the impossibility of achieving a one-to-one correspondence or mere transcription between languages. It’s great when we can get more than one translation of a work. <o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>The use of the word “black” as a personal descriptor in English is interesting. I think of Henry Crawford in Mansfield Park described as “black,” when (apparently) he is not racially black, simply dark-haired and eyed. Of course, this all points up how arbitrary race is. <o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><br><br><o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal>On Apr 29, 2018, at 6:26 AM, Adolphe Haberer via Vwoolf <<a href="mailto:vwoolf@lists.osu.edu">vwoolf@lists.osu.edu</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Dear Stuart,<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>You surprisingly forgot to mention the first "black woman" in <i>Jacob's Room</i>, even though she turns out to be a rock: "A large black woman was sitting on the sand. He ran towards her." (Ch. I)<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Also, there exists another translation of the book into French, done by Agnès Desarthe, Paris: Stock, 2008.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Thank you for your contribution to the list.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Best<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Ado<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><br clear=all><o:p></o:p></p><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'>==<br>Adolphe Haberer<br>Professeur émérite à l'Université Lumière Lyon 2<br>1 route de Saint-Antoine 69380 Chazay d'Azergues<br><a href="mailto:Adolphe.Haberer@univ-lyon2.fr" target="_blank">Adolphe.Haberer@univ-lyon2.fr</a><br><a href="mailto:ado@haberer.fr" target="_blank">ado@haberer.fr</a><br>33 (0) 4 78 43 65 24<br>33 (0) 6 63 57 95 91<br><br><br><o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal>2018-04-28 14:01 GMT+02:00 Stuart N. Clarke via Vwoolf <<a href="mailto:vwoolf@lists.osu.edu" target="_blank">vwoolf@lists.osu.edu</a>>:<o:p></o:p></p><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>This is the title of an article of mine in VWM81* & VWB37. It suddenly occurred to me to wonder what translators have made of the problem, and, if I am right, more black people are appearing in translations. My knowledge of foreign languages is limited, and the examples I’m choosing from “Jacob’s Room” are another problem, since generally it was not one of the first of Woolf’s books to be translated. The only complete translation to appear in her lifetime was Swedish (selections appeared in French in journals). And of course, I don’t have all the translations.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>*<a href="https://virginiawoolfmiscellany.files.wordpress.com/2013/09/vwm81spring2012.pdf" target="_blank" title="https://virginiawoolfmiscellany.files.wordpress.com/2013/09/vwm81spring2012.pdf">https://virginiawoolfmiscellany.files.wordpress.com/2013/09/vwm81spring2012.pdf</a><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>Ch. VI: Out she swept, the black woman with the dancing feather in her hat.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>Ch. XII: Italy is all fierceness, bareness, exposure, and black priests shuffling along the roads. <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>FRENCH<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>Jean Talva, 1942: “la femme en noir”; “prêtres” [no adjective!].<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>Magali Merle, 1993: “la femme en noir”; “noire prêtraille” [an obscure word to me, which I am guessing means clergy].<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>Adolphe Haberer, 2012: “la femme noire”; “prêtres noirs”.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>PORTUGUESE<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>Maria Teresa Guerreiro, 1989 (Brazil): “a mulher negra”; “padres de preto”.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>Lucília Rodrigues, 1992 (Portugal): “a mulher negra”; “padres negros”.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>ITALIAN<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>Anna Banti, 1950: “la donna in nero”; “neri preti”.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>Mirella Billi, 1994: “la donna vestita di nero”; “preti neri”.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>GERMAN<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>Gustav K. Kemperdick, 1981: “die schwarze Frau”; “schwarze Priester”.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>Heidi Zerning, 1998: “die schwarze Frau”; “schwarze Priester”.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>SWEDISH<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>Siri Thorngren-Olin, 1927: “den mörka kvinnan”; “svarta präster”.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>Siri Thorngren-Olin (revised by unknown), 2007: “den mörka kvinnan”; “svarta präster”.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>I think the tendency is there, although these examples are not conclusive. However, translators should not make a book simpler for their readers than it is for the (English) native speaker. If the word seems more ambiguous (or even more misleading) now than it did in 1922, to what extent should the translator use a contemporary word or interpretation? Yet, I don’t want to read Dante in English, where the English seems incomprehensible:<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>Now had the sun to that horizon reached,<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>That covers, with the most exalted point<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>Of its meridian circle, Salem’s walls,<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>And night, that opposite to him her orb<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>Rounds, from the stream of Ganges issued forth,<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>Holding the scales, that from her hands are dropped<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>When she reigns highest ...<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#888888'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#888888'>Stuart<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><br>_______________________________________________<br>Vwoolf mailing list<br><a href="mailto:Vwoolf@lists.osu.edu">Vwoolf@lists.osu.edu</a><br><a href="https://lists.osu.edu/mailman/listinfo/vwoolf" target="_blank">https://lists.osu.edu/mailman/listinfo/vwoolf</a><o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal>_______________________________________________<br>Vwoolf mailing list<br><a href="mailto:Vwoolf@lists.osu.edu">Vwoolf@lists.osu.edu</a><br><a href="https://lists.osu.edu/mailman/listinfo/vwoolf">https://lists.osu.edu/mailman/listinfo/vwoolf</a><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div></div></body></html>